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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Here's a dump file from WorkShelf.

Is crashing often here, I suspect it happens when the screen changes to DSR (dynamic super resolution) and comes back to native resolution (1080p)

I'm not sure though, what I know is that once in a while I find the workshelf is not there and when I look in the taskbar I see the icon disappearing as I hover over it (signaling it crashed)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Zt9zU ... SsuC-OcWrx


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:44 pm 
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I could 100% reproduce this issue:

When the workshelf is running and I launch a 1440p or 4K game (using dynamic super resolution in my 1080p monitors) in fullscreen in my main monitor workshelf makes windows to change resolutions constantly and goes back to the desktop. (effectively preventing the game from showing at all)

I could confirm this because as soon as I closed workshelf the game ran fine. (F1 2018)

This happens with Shadow of the Tomb Raider too. And doesn't happen with Starcraft 2. Also with StarCraft 2 the workshelf doesn't change from one monitor to another.

Also workshelf changes from one monitor to another constantly after playing a game in 4K (which could be the cause) and doesn't go back to the original monitor unless I do it manually.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Location: UK
Last we heard any real news here about what's happening was Saturday after so-called black Friday, saying official release likely day after 'Cyber Monday'. Well, the latter's long been and gone, and still no news of any kind? What's happening Jorge? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

People like to be kept informed. Users of apps are no exception.

I'm also fast losing the will to live.... or rather, the will to skin. Haven't done anything in weeks now, as it's pointless if I can't finish themes completely and to a fully working state. I'm sure many others would have gone through the same and in the end gave up. I mean, how many new skins have there been in the past 8 years or so? Going by WC and DA, barely more than a couple of handful! 'nuff said.

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nexter - so, what's next?


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:47 am 
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sacco_belmonte wrote:
I could 100% reproduce this issue:

When the workshelf is running and I launch a 1440p or 4K game (using dynamic super resolution in my 1080p monitors) in fullscreen in my main monitor workshelf makes windows to change resolutions constantly and goes back to the desktop. (effectively preventing the game from showing at all)

I could confirm this because as soon as I closed workshelf the game ran fine. (F1 2018)


So, the question is: was this NOT happening before (i.e.; did it start happening only after I added multi-monitor profiling in the last two betas) ?

So, let's see if the profiles can give me some idea as to what might be happening there.

First make sure you are running the latest beta (WorkShelf v18.11.1369, the last four digits are the important ones), which had to be downloaded manually from the link I posted here.

Then go to

C:\Users\Public\Documents\WinStep\Profiles\

and delete all files in there.

Now run one of the problematic games. Once that is done, go to the same folder, zip the files in there and send them over, please.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:49 am 
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nexter wrote:
Last we heard any real news here about what's happening was Saturday after so-called black Friday, saying official release likely day after 'Cyber Monday'. Well, the latter's long been and gone, and still no news of any kind? What's happening Jorge? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

People like to be kept informed. Users of apps are no exception.


Real life got in the way. 'nuff said.

Now that November is gone and v18.11 has effectively become v18.12, there is no real reason to rush the release.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:42 pm 
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winstep wrote:
sacco_belmonte wrote:
I could 100% reproduce this issue:

When the workshelf is running and I launch a 1440p or 4K game (using dynamic super resolution in my 1080p monitors) in fullscreen in my main monitor workshelf makes windows to change resolutions constantly and goes back to the desktop. (effectively preventing the game from showing at all)

I could confirm this because as soon as I closed workshelf the game ran fine. (F1 2018)


So, the question is: was this NOT happening before (i.e.; did it start happening only after I added multi-monitor profiling in the last two betas) ?

So, let's see if the profiles can give me some idea as to what might be happening there.

First make sure you are running the latest beta (WorkShelf v18.11.1369, the last four digits are the important ones), which had to be downloaded manually from the link I posted here.

Then go to

C:\Users\Public\Documents\WinStep\Profiles\

and delete all files in there.

Now run one of the problematic games. Once that is done, go to the same folder, zip the files in there and send them over, please.


Latest beta installed. Tried F1 2018

Here are the ini files, hopefully you'll find something. Thank you :)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xkOkO ... ge7hJjy68N


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:07 pm 
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sacco_belmonte wrote:
Latest beta installed. Tried F1 2018

Here are the ini files, hopefully you'll find something. Thank you :)


You didn't answer my question if the problems already happened prior to the betas with the monitor profiles. :)

Also, there seems to be a 4 second difference between the creation of the two monitor profiles. What exactly happened when you launched F1 2018? How long did you stay in the game?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
You didn't answer my question if the problems already happened prior to the betas with the monitor profiles.


Can't tell.

The problem started happening about 20 days ago. I noticed while trying to play Shadow of the tomb raider and now F1 2018. At the time I didn't think it was related to the workshelf so I didn't connect them until now.

It only happens at 1440p and 4K. (with dynamic super resolution) essentially any resolution that is bigger than my monitor's resolution (obviously didn't try smaller than my monitor's 1080p native res)

Quote:
What exactly happened when you launched F1 2018? How long did you stay in the game?


If by "Stay" you mean how long the game was "running", for about 20s?....the screen goes back and forth from 1080p to the game's resolution and threw me to the desktop each time. No real way to actually see or play the game.

Those two ini files showed up after trying the game once. Then I tried once more and there was no new ini created. By the time I closed the game the workshelf was on my top monitor.

I can record a video with my phone to show the problem. Let me know if you would like to see that.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:40 pm 
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sacco_belmonte wrote:
I can record a video with my phone to show the problem. Let me know if you would like to see that.


Actually, I would, please. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:27 pm 
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There you go :)

https://youtu.be/qiUfl4Lfq-w


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:08 pm 
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sacco_belmonte wrote:


Thanks for the video. :)

Now let's try something else: open WorkShelf Preferences, go to the General tab and check 'Disable multi-monitor profiles' at the bottom. Press OK.

Does the same thing still happen when you try to run the game now?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Tried that, even tried restarting the workshelf after turning off multi monitor profiles and it still does the same.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:19 am 
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Posts: 127
winstep wrote:
toniostarcevic wrote:
But you shouldn't justify the actions of the whole software industry.


I'm not. :) I'm just explaining why paying for upgrades is fair.

Also, greediness is relative: remember that the higher the risks, the higher the reward needs to be for people to be willing to take them. These days people have very high expectations (games, movies, etc) and therefore you can't really make an AAA game or movie without first investing MILLIONS of dollars in it. There is also a LOT of competition. Now imagine if it all goes bad: someone just lost a TON of money, maybe even their own house. Not like it hasn't happened before. :wink:


I'm just talking about relation. If I purchase a software collection for 1000$ that took 200,000 hours of work to this day and then I have to pay 500$ for an update that only took 300 hours of work... That's an absurd relation.
You can tell it just by looking at the release intervals.
So it took half the amount of work from v14 to v15 as from v1 to v14? And then from v15 to v16 again? How could they release them with only a few months inbetween then? Does this make any sense? All the progress from v1 to v14 has already been paid.
This is my definition of greed. You want more and more, but you want to do less and less for it. I have no problem to pay for an upgrade. But seriously - If I've just purchased the software for 1000$ and a few months later there's an update with +5% content but for 50% of the price? I don't want it for free, just make it not absurd. 50$ - deal. But 500$? For a really tiny upgrade? It seriously feels like a joke.

Take Blizzard for example. They spoiled the whole game industry.
Between 2005 and 2015 (2015 was the last time I've cheched this) they made about 1.5 billion $ per year, only from the WoW subscribers. Plus the money for the game, plus micro transactions. People tend to not realize how much a billion actually is, so I like to use the following example:
A million seconds are 11 days. A billion seconds are more than 31 years.
Before WoW, game studios didn't even dare to dream to make such an amount of money with a game.
They deliver content for WoW - yes. But it's impossible to deliver a justified amount of content. You could make hundreds and thousands of games from it.

This doesn't apply to Winstep in any way. It's just some examples for a negative development.
You're in fact my favourite software developer right now. I hardly ever got such an amount of new features for any software and your customer care and enthusiasm for your software are remarkable.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:56 am 
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sacco_belmonte wrote:
Tried that, even tried restarting the workshelf after turning off multi monitor profiles and it still does the same.


Ok. Not good. However I think I know what might be behind this. In the video you posted, go to 4:10 and look at the rightmost monitor (while 'things' are happening in the other two monitors). You should see a pop up window quickly appearing and then disappearing just as the game is being launched.

This is what is causing the trouble, more likely than not. The vast majority of games run an executable and that executable changes the screen resolution and immediately goes full screen. If you look at the video, just about when you say 'it goes directly into it', it is actually NOT going directly into it.

Not only can you see that pop up at the right, as if you look at the left bottom screen you can also see the Windows taskbar pop up and quickly disappear again.

There is no feature in Windows that allows 3rd party applications to know when a full screen game is running or is getting ready to run, there is only a notification that tells 3rd party applications that the screen resolution has been changed (or monitors have been added/removed, etc).

Despite this, the Winstep application needs to know when the user himself manually initiates a screen resolution change (so it can reposition its objects within the new visible area) or when a game does this (so it does nothing until the game exits).

So, when the Winstep application gets the notification that *something* has happened to the viewable screen space, it first checks to see if the screen resolution has changed. If it has, then it waits half a second to give enough time for the game to stabilize/launch, and after that delay it checks to see if the current foreground window is a FULL SCREEN window. If it is, it assumes a full screen game has just been launched and is currently running and does absolutely nothing more other than disable edge bump activations etc (so it does not interfere with the game).

If, on the other hand, after half a second the current foreground window is NOT a full screen window, then it can only assume one of two things: either the screen resolution change happened because we just exited a full screen game (in which case we must refresh the visible objects as DX games may have corrupted the layered windows) OR it's a screen resolution change initiated by the user (in which case objects must be repositioned, reserved screen areas reset, etc)

I think that what that particular game is doing when launching (and notice how long it takes to launch, even on a fast machine) makes WorkShelf assume the later. This in turn takes focus away from the game, which makes it minimize to the taskbar and apparently returns screen resolution to whatever it was before.

I'm not really sure what can be done to solve this. Perhaps increase the waiting delay to 1 second or even a bit more. Another possible solution would be adding a 'compatibility game list' the user can fill with shortcuts to games that misbehave (so WorkShelf does nothing if that executable is running) but even that would not be 100% fool proof because some games use a separate launcher.

My vote goes for increasing the delay - but that has the drawback of nothing happening after a screen resolution change (e.g.; when returning from a game, manually changing screen resolutions or adding/removing monitors) while the delay is in effect.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:07 am 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
This doesn't apply to Winstep in any way. It's just some examples for a negative development.
You're in fact my favourite software developer right now. I hardly ever got such an amount of new features for any software and your customer care and enthusiasm for your software are remarkable.


Thanks for the kind words. I try my best to be fair both to myself and to the users.

Anyway, for me there are not better examples of greediness than EA and Bethesda - what is currently happening with Fallout 76 and their response is nothing more than mind blowing. It's like they're determined to destroy their own company.

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