What it says on the tin. We've seen quite a lot of discussion here with regard to themes lately. I suspect this is going to be a tad controversial, but here goes anyway.

To begin with, let's clear up some common misconceptions about themes and the creation thereof, and I make no apologies for this. Themes are emphatically *not* art, they are a craft, a skill. As someone with a background in art and graphic design and experience in UI design, I have to disabuse you of this delusion and state that themes fall very firmly into the category of the latter. However, much of this is actually limited to what are termed the 'window decorations' - this applies essentially to things like menus, docks, shelves in Winstep apps. More scope for design is offered by the desktop modules, of course.

Now, what I generally expect from a GUI is that it should follow the principle of form follows function, is clear and uncluttered, and intuitive to use. This starts with a clear, simple, non-distracting background or 'wallpaper'. Most of the time it will be covered by various programmes' windows, unless you like to spend a lot of time just gazing at it. I don't, I like to be productive and bugger off from the computer as quickly as possible. I also don't expect to see a plethora of desktop modules and other small apps cluttering up my workspace. As in so many things, less is more.

Some of the best 'wallpapers' I have ever seen are the default ones of the 'vanilla' Ubuntu Linux distribution, going back a long way. Simple, no distractions.

Now, what you may regard as 'art' in the context of themes is really just pretty pictures. Usually far too intricate and distracting to be considered for serious use. Pretty, but just a distraction. Of all the Winstep themes that I have seen over the years, I'm sad to have to say the vast majority fall into this category for me. There isn't one that I personally would want to use. (I do use a couple of the themes that Jorge paid for, though, as well as my own.) I'm just not a 'pretty pictures' type of guy, I don't like distractions. More is less, and less is more.

Of course, none of this is to say that themes couldn't be aesthetically pleasing. I am not arguing against the basic concept of 'eye candy', per se.

I'm hoping this may start some lively, intelligent and tolerant discussion on the subject.

There is very little worth disagreeing with there.

Keep in mind that while I completely agree that real Graphic arts, real painting with oils, real three dimensional art manually and painstakingly created with wireframes is by far closer to real Artistic Graphic design than anything any Winstep skin designer does (which is all it is - creating designs or layers on top of what is already created).

For a start, this is all mostly low res and a large majority were not hand-created in vectors. All the above before entering into personal tastes of cluttering, or what any of us like, because evidently, that is merely personal taste.

If you are going to be impartial, then consider that many of us do it just because it is simply - FUN. Also consider that it is given away by most of us, nobody asks for any money (I do not consider myself good enough to do that it's a hobby)and LAST, the most important part...
No designer creating on Jorge's hard work should care what other's think anyway? That's pretty insecure. They should create to be happy with it themselves and if other people like it then that is great.

The only true Art in this program from where I sit is Jorge, the person who made it because Art can be found in everything. The programming he's done is also art.
Every Winstep designer creates layers on top of what exists. Without Winstep, Workbench and NEXUS, there would be no platform to make skins. That is the only Real credit and for me, the only thing anyone should care about is Winstep working as intended, not what anyone thinks of skins that are sorry to say in any program - A dime a dozen.

Cheers

EDIT ADDITION:

The first substantial volume skinning I saw for any application was probably circa 2001?
WINAMP.

I think there were thousands made over a period of ten years. Some were clever - Everything from Pepsi, to Kenwood stereo systems, Nakamichi, Coke, Television sets... almost any brand, product or electrical item you could think of. I think it actually commenced before the turn of the century? I haven't googled it.

As for my favourite theme?
Office by Winstep Technologies is my "Go-To" Theme.
As far as clarity, functionality inside a minimalist concept, for me, it's hard to beat. The only thing I change is the wallpaper. Whoever did this is at the top of their game in skinning and deserves whatever praise they get, in my opinion only.

I agree with you on clutter, though—UI that screams for attention with busy backgrounds or overdone effects usually just gets in the way. Clean, minimal, and intuitive almost always wins.

That's refreshing to see.

Yes and no. In practice, often as not these days the basic, rudimentary graphic framework or even shapes are coded first, and then the 'decorations' are added separately, often in another programming language and gfx framework. In the case of many Linux distros e.g., this latter process takes place within a framework called GTK+ (another widely used one is qt5) which is actually cross-platform and thus also available under Windows. This means that e.g. the Window decorations can and usually are themed to a limited extent by separate 'themers'. (Likewise, icons are open to being themed.) It is still a matter of creating a cohesive design.

All this is generally far from 'low-res' these days - certainly within the Linux world, most gfx are made to go up to 4K and even 8K res. Being 'hand-created in vectors' or otherwise is completely irrelevant, it's not the method but the result that matters. To put it another way,it's the design concept that's at the heart of it. What method is used to execute it is neither here nor there. One might as well argue that it is of importance what medium - oils, egg-oil, egg tempera, gouache, or watercolours an artist chose, or what brushes, knives, etc. he picked. It's the result that counts, nothing else.

Cluttering is decidedly not a matter of personal taste. It is a distraction from productivity. If someone likes a certain theme and not another one, that is a matter of personal taste. But, OTOH, someone liking a certain theme does not of and in itself mean that that theme is a good design.

Yes, making themes because it is fun I do get. That's well and good. However, there are it seems themers who take themselves deadly seriously, with over-inflated egos to match.

Indeed, I agree themers should not give a damn what anybody else thinks of their themes and just be happy with them themselves. However, this is not great for 'quality control' unfortunately. When I look over what themes there are, say on WC, a large proportion - if not a majority - are based on US comics 'heroes' and that ilk, and other juvenile themes, made in a completely formulaic manner. And so one ends up with a dozen or whatever themes that are essentially all the same. Not exactly 'quality', and not even creative but just derivative. Sadly, there are perhaps a handful of themes - all of them older - that actually show some originality, good design, and overall quality.


With all due respect, and without wishing to take anything away from Jorge's genius as a programmer, I have to disagree. Programming is a skill, a very great skill at its best, and Jorge is a true genius programming the Winstep apps. He is managing to get every last ounce out of a language that was quite potent when Winstep apps were first conceived and when multithreading was still a long way away from the Windows world, and that at the time allowed for fairly rapid application development but now imposes severe limitations due to its age. Moreover, he has to contend with an ever more hostile Windows environment. To achieve what Jorge achieves under these circumstances does take true genius. And yes, Winstep apps provide an ideal platform for making themes. And there is of course scope to create good design but alas, it rarely shows itself.



Somewhere around the millenium - my memory is a bit vague about exactly when Winamp became skinnable. I do recall though that they used a skin of mine to promote it. A similar skin was used by some calculator app and I seem to recall I was given a lifetime free license. Anyway, I remember, the skins were mostly pretty horrific IMO and totally derivative of unrelated topics. A media player should look like one, not like a Coke vending machine.

Yes, clean, minimal, and intuitive always beats everything else. Doesn't mean that it cannot be visually appealing, if done right. For a classic example of excellent GUI design that is clean, minimalist, and very intuitive to use yet also quite the most beautiful ever have look out for some screenshots of the old NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP OS - there should still be plenty around. Never been bettered. Plain vanilla Ubuntu Linux comes very close though.


[Edit] N.B. - NeXTSTEEP/OPENSTEP incidentally was the original inspiration for Winstep apps. I was still running it at the time, in spite of Jobs having sold us users out, the rat. [/Edit]

I have looked at a lot of themes. The topic does not bother me for any theme.
The physical size and there are more than a few, where the modules are way too big for me perhaps and how much real estate just one takes up - there are a few that take up 1/4 of an entire screen... I mean a REAL quarter of the entire screen...For me, that does not work. I thought the ideas were fine, which I thought was shame.
.
Sure you can change sizes. These days many people feel they should just open it and it works. Sure I can already think of several retorts to that and they may be fair enough. I look for consistency and form. I figure people like the way something looks and its functionality or they do not.
Colour choices also have a lot to do with what some people like as well. some are soothing, some are intense.
e.g. even in a photo - a relaxed beach picture for many will be more enticing than a photo of a war zone...

You may have opened a can of worms in some ways... there are so many areas. Thanks for the feedback though

As sure as Japanese living environments are spare and many Westerners are cluttered, there a variances too.
Many Westerners do not feel their living space interior design is cluttered. Some also think the Japanese interior design is too empty.

Another misused phrase is "Less is more". No it is not and never has been. Less is less and more is more, always has been and always will be. It is now almost a cliche for several environments. Some actually mean that less is more desirable or can even mean uncluttered. Others use it as a critical insinuation because they simply do not like it. Either way it's a misnomer without the word desirable on the end of it.

P.S. DaVinci's "The Last Supper" is one of the more famous paintings from history. It's cluttered. Daniele Crepsi's version (1630) even more so. They are still solid works of art. So I cannot agree with you and others that it's unappealing or even because they are depictions, because they may never have been heard of if everyone felt the same way about how simple or convoluted something is. There is a degree of personal taste, not matter how much form or principle something does or does not follow.

Good debate - Kudos

I know I'd prefer a war zone any day to a beach with tourists who should have stayed at home instead of making life difficult or impossible for locals. (Granted, I happen to think that tourism and most travel generally should be banned or severely restricted at least, in the interest of the environment, wildlife, and a host of other issues.) At least a war zone depicts real life in all its tragedy.

Well,, truth be told, 'opening a can of worms' was partly my intention. Generally in discussions and debates I like to be somewhat provocative - tends to help separating the sheep from the goats as it were, or the 'idiots' from the more intelligent.

I don't think that that analogue holds water - it seems a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Also, totally different cultures, totally different living conditions, etc. etc. And I don't think as a rule Westerners are in any position to judge Japanese culture - for a start, few have the slightest understanding of it, let alone appreciation. So what may appear to typical western eyes as sparse is, in Japanese eyes, just right.

I beg to differ. In the context of this discussion, i.e., design of themes, it is a very valid phrase. The meaning of more there is an implied one, and implies or can imply several things, e.g., appropriate, fitting, better design, more thoughtfulness, and so on. The opposite is also generally implied here, i.e., more is less.

Ah but we're not discussing art here, that is the whole point. (I would, incidentally, have to disagree in not finding the great Leonardo's Last Supper cluttered - it's a scene, albeit a fictitious one, depicting what was supposed to be there, and a depiction that is leading the viewer into the space of the scene, a first in western art. And I wouldn't dream even mentioning Crepsi in the same sentence as Leonardo. ) No, it is design we're really concerned with here. That said, of course, much art starts out as a good design in the first place. One of the first things I learned.

Likewise! A real pleasure.

Interesting read

First when I said beach I should have included "Deserted" - Yeah man, I have a distaste for tourist flooded resorts as well. I could go into semantics and suggest that are you suggesting Tourists aren't real life...that's my sense of humour nothing more.

Second, yes I agree that if a person neither models their home that way, or has not lived or toured there (in my case), or has no understanding of culture they should not judge it.

Third, In the design of themes you consider that almost cliche's phrase to be right and it may well be the 'norm' in Desktop publishing circles, but in the most simple definition and correct vocabulary, it never will be correct. At best a colloquialism or slang phrase more often found in a Thesaurus. or any place that says 'a phrase indicating...'.

Fourth I re-read your original post. You are correct, Desktop publishing, Skinning or advertising Graphics e.g. Logos and the like are not art based on your statements this being in my opinion only. In many scenarios the Graphic artist is commissioned which based on your knowledge is commonplace. So the Person paying dictates what they want which means they are creating like skinning, based on someone else's preconceived ideas, or verbalised design concepts, wants and needs. The fact they design something based on that is irrelevant. They aren't free to do what they want and then say live with it. So it is far removed from real art of any kind. There's a great phrase by Frank Zappa that goes something like: "Any creative decision based on money is a business decision, not an artistic decision".

Last Leonardo's - Opinions are a beautiful thing. I agree to disagree - As for Crepsi, I agree different league.
Cheers

1) What, you mean tourists are real life?

3) Yes, of course the phrases 'more is less' and 'less is more' are colloquialisms, no argument there. Nonetheless, that does not invalidate them. They're nuanced expressions that have validity in many things. (Although, I don't know where desktop publishing came into this?)

4) There are many different scenarios of how a graphic artist may be commissioned. A tight brief is only one of them. A completely open brief also exists, where the G.A. submits an idea or a few to the client and if the client approves one, then the G.A. develops it full throttle. Anything in between those two scenarios occurs. But the result in any of those cases is a matter of design, not art - and certainly not fine art - to be sure, even with the G.A. having complete creative freedom.