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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:18 am 
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While trying to understand and fix these UWP app icon issue, I started adding something which I think might be useful (but give me some feedback, please):

The Start Menu in Windows 10 is no longer based on the old physical shortcuts/folder structure model, but rather on some hybrid internal database + older folder structure model (this is also the reason why the Winstep Start Menu application is NOT listed as Windows 10 compatible). As such, I can't get to it and so the Programs sub-menu in the main NextSTART menu is missing all the UWP apps in Windows 10. Not good, although alleviated a bit by the icon in the Quick Launch section of the NextSTART taskbar that opens the real Windows Start Menu.

However, I think I just came up with a work-around: I can apparently enumerate all the installed UWP apps on the computer. With this I could create a new special Shelf tab type and NextSTART menu type (called, e.g.; Windows Apps): this tab/menu would show all the UWP apps available to the user.

For NextSTART, I could even add this sub-menu type to the top of the Programs sub-menu (e.g. Apps would be the first item, clicking on it would show all the available UWP apps in a single menu).

What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:04 am 
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Well, guess what? It works: we now have a new 'Apps' Shelf type under Windows 10. Add it to the Shelf, click on it and Bob's your uncle. :)

I also think this Shelf tab type should be added automatically to the default Shelf tabs when installing/running the application under Windows 10.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:41 am 
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Ok, under Windows 10 you now have a new menu type: Apps Menu. As the name says, it displays all installed UWP apps on your computer (for that user). As with all other stuff, you can attach it to hotspots, add it to existing menus, etc...

ALSO under Windows 10, the very first item in the All Programs sub-menu opens an Apps menu.


EDIT: Something else I can tell you: Windows 10 has MAJOR issues with displaying the icons for UWP apps. Two things I noticed, for instance:

1. The Calendar app would always display a blank document icon. This is not a problem with the Winstep application itself, since I could drag a shortcut from the *Windows* Start Menu to the Desktop and the shortcut created this way ALSO displayed the blank icon. App displayed fine on the Windows Start Menu, however.

2. The Calculator App icon would display fine at 32x32 or higher, but request a 16x16 icon (for the new NextSTART Apps menu) and you get - you guessed it! - the blank document icon.

It's their mess, they made their own beds, let them lie on them.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Is it just me, or is the Aero Glass support broken meanwhile?
I didn't use it for a while, but now, when enabling it, the background of the dock or shelf just becomes opaque. The Blur Effect Settings (RGB Threshold, Alpha Treshold) doesn't change anything, except that it gets completely disabled at a specific point.

It works properly with window title bars though.

EDIT:

It's not broken. But the implementation is a bit strange. It seems as if it would exaggerate the effect.
When setting following values in Aero Glass GUI:
Blur amount: 15 (max) and Accent -> Opacity 75%, the window title bars are properly transparent, but Winstep is opaque.
You have to go down to Blur amount 10 or less, and Opactiy 60% or less to have the dock or shelf become transparent.
A proper setting for Winstep would be 5/40, but then the title bars are much too transparent and to less blurry.
The RGB Theshold/Alpha Threshold settings are strange too. I have to set the RGB Threshold to 0%, otherwise the blur effect is gone or partially gone. (hard to describe - the effect is cut off at specific parts of the background, depending on the theme)
The Alpha Threshold setting doesn't change anything at all.
Another thing: diagonal borders, like you have in the 3D glass dock, "Leopard" for example, become aliased with the blur effect enabled.
Would it be to much to ask to improve the support for Aero Glass at this time?


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:12 am 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
Is it just me, or is the Aero Glass support broken meanwhile?


Tony... which galaxy have you been at for these past few years? :wink:

Of course it's broken... Microsoft *deliberately* broke it in Windows 8. In fact, I think it was the first time I saw Windows actually *losing* features - normally they are maintained even if only for backward's compatibility sake.

What they eventually brought back in Windows 10 is but a pale shadow of what Aero Glass used to be. While before you could specify complex regions where the system should apply the blur effect, now it's all or nothing: either it's the full rectangular window, or nothing. No amount of tweaking the Winstep blur settings is going to fix that, and what in Windows 7 would be a transparent blurred region of the dock, under Windows 10 it becomes a white opaque mess.

The only way to get the old Aero Glass back is through a 3rd party application called, hmm, AeroGlass, but it's unofficial, unsupported, and I don't think it has seen any development in a long time. I did try it once in Windows 10 and it worked - but I had the feeling that Aero Glass implementation was too slow to actually be useful.

Surprises me you didn't notice the Windows 10 crippled warning at the top of the Blur Effect Settings dialog.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:51 pm 
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winstep wrote:
toniostarcevic wrote:
Is it just me, or is the Aero Glass support broken meanwhile?


Tony... which galaxy have you been at for these past few years? :wink:

Of course it's broken... Microsoft *deliberately* broke it in Windows 8. In fact, I think it was the first time I saw Windows actually *losing* features - normally they are maintained even if only for backward's compatibility sake.

What they eventually brought back in Windows 10 is but a pale shadow of what Aero Glass used to be. While before you could specify complex regions where the system should apply the blur effect, now it's all or nothing: either it's the full rectangular window, or nothing. No amount of tweaking the Winstep blur settings is going to fix that, and what in Windows 7 would be a transparent blurred region of the dock, under Windows 10 it becomes a white opaque mess.

The only way to get the old Aero Glass back is through a 3rd party application called, hmm, AeroGlass, but it's unofficial, unsupported, and I don't think it has seen any development in a long time. I did try it once in Windows 10 and it worked - but I had the feeling that Aero Glass implementation was too slow to actually be useful.

Surprises me you didn't notice the Windows 10 crippled warning at the top of the Blur Effect Settings dialog.


Huh? Something's seriously wrong here... ^^
Of course I'm talking about Big Muscle's glass blur implementation, Aero Glass...
I thought we've already had some conversation about this some years ago?
Some time ago, it worked quite well with Winstep however...
Aero Glass still works like a charm and is up-to-date, it even got updated to Fall Creators Update one or two days later.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:06 pm 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
I thought we've already had some conversation about this some years ago?


Hey, I blame it on Alzheimer's. :P

Look, Winstep has nothing to do with it. All Winstep does is tell Windows which regions/parts of a dock/window should be blurred. The Blur settings on Winstep's side only have to do with deciding WHICH semi-transparent parts should be blurred (e.g.; so a semi-transparent drop shadow doesn't get blurred as well, which would look bad). Thing is, when people made those semi-transparent themes and dock backgrounds, they didn't specify which parts were supposed to be blurred - the Winstep application has to figure it out by itself, and normally it actually does a good job.

The blurring action itself, however, is strictly up to Windows (or, in this case, AeroGlass). /me thinks the author should have named the program something else, since naming it like the original makes it very easy to get lost in a conversation. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:21 pm 
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winstep wrote:
toniostarcevic wrote:
I thought we've already had some conversation about this some years ago?


Hey, I blame it on Alzheimer's. :P

Look, Winstep has nothing to do with it. All Winstep does is tell Windows which regions/parts of a dock/window should be blurred. The Blur settings on Winstep's side only have to do with deciding WHICH semi-transparent parts should be blurred (e.g.; so a semi-transparent drop shadow doesn't get blurred as well, which would look bad). Thing is, when people made those semi-transparent themes and dock backgrounds, they didn't specify which parts were supposed to be blurred - the Winstep application has to figure it out by itself, and normally it actually does a good job.

The blurring action itself, however, is strictly up to Windows (or, in this case, AeroGlass). /me thinks the author should have named the program something else, since naming it like the original makes it very easy to get lost in a conversation. :roll:


I'm aware that the blur and transparency amounts are managed by Aero Glass.

I've already cut of the shadow of a theme completely, but it didn't help - there was still aliasing. Maybe it's just not possible to have proper diagonal lines with Aero Glass enabled...?

https://imgur.com/a/Omg4F

Image

EDIT: have misread the name part...


Last edited by toniostarcevic on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:46 pm 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
I've already cut of the shadow of a theme completely, but it didn't help - there was still aliasing. Maybe it's just not possible to have proper diagonal lines with Aero Glass enabled...?


Well, I don't know where those black edge lines are coming from. Here is the same theme (Leopard) running on Windows 7:

Image

As you can see... no black lines.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:50 pm 
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winstep wrote:
toniostarcevic wrote:
I've already cut of the shadow of a theme completely, but it didn't help - there was still aliasing. Maybe it's just not possible to have proper diagonal lines with Aero Glass enabled...?


Well, I don't know where those black edge lines are coming from. Here is the same theme (Leopard) running on Windows 7:

Image

As you can see... no black lines.


Blur support is enabled. It's about BM's Aero Glass the whole time.
Without blur, it look like in your picture.
But transparency looks a lot nicer with blur.
Maybe it really just doesn't work with diagonal lines...

EDIT: Wait... do I see blur there in your picture? I've only looked at the border... Is this Win 7?


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:00 pm 
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I can only have one of this 2 states:

https://imgur.com/a/JHKAW

Image

Either nothing, or too much. (with black border)
Note the properly blurred explorer window in the back...


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:09 pm 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
EDIT: Wait... do I see blur there in your picture? I've only looked at the border... Is this Win 7?


Yes and yes.

P.S. I edited your posts so the images are also shown.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I've found what's causing this.
The setting "Accent Color" in Aero Glass GUI.
I have to set the opacity to 0, then the dock looks like in your picture.
As soon as you fade in some accent color, the opacity increases and the black border appears.
But setting it to zero makes the title bar completely clear.
So I rather stick with no blur in Winstep...
Too bad, that it's the same setting. :(

Strangely, the explorer frame (/window) remains fairly transparent, even with 80% accent color opacity...
While the dock appears completely opaque with 40-50% already.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:17 am 
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winstep wrote:
Quote:
Ok, under Windows 10 you now have a new menu type: Apps Menu. As the name says, it displays all installed UWP apps on your computer (for that user). As with all other stuff, you can attach it to hotspots, add it to existing menus, etc...


I supose this refers to another beta, after 17.12. I get no update when I check for updates.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.1?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:00 am 
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Vlad wrote:
I supose this refers to another beta, after 17.12. I get no update when I check for updates.


Correct, I meant I added it here, and will be available in the next release.

Not sure we are going to have another beta, though, not if I want to release before Xmas. :)

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