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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:03 am 
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My guess is that you will find out that is exactly what happens. I already figured out why here and fixed it.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:45 am 
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winstep wrote:
Ok, so you get the proper live folder thumbnail if you wait, but if you quickly switch between tabs as when you were trying to crash the Shelf, there is no thumbnail, just a folder icon.

Correct?

You'll have to restart WorkShelf every time you experiment, because icons and thumbnails get cached internally.


Exactly.
It just takes forever for them to be created sometimes. Probably when the computer is busy. But it doesn't crash Workshelf anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:25 am 
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An email I got from a customer with a screenshot of how he uses Nexus Ultimate prompted me to want to discuss some ideas with you guys. For the time being these are just ideas since, to actually implement them, I must first enable vertical and multiple Shelves.

Anyway, here is the image:

Image

Ok, as you can see he has a dock on the left from which several sub-docks spawn. Nothing really new so far, but it did give me an idea on how best to accomplish something that has been on my to-do list for quite some time: Drawers.

But first, to understand what I am talking about, check out the following screenshot of a DragThing (the WorkShelf equivalent in MacOSX) in action:

Image

Ok, see those little tabs in the left side of the desktop? They're called Drawers. You click on the tab and the whole thing expands.

So, my original idea was to emulate something like that, a Drawer would be a single-tab single-row Shelf. That is one way to do it.

However, the customer's screenshot gave me an idea for an alternate implementation method which would actually work better with what is already there:

What if instead of each Drawer being an individual, single-tab/single-row Shelf, it was instead a single collapsed Shelf holding multiple tabs/Drawers? The difference would be, when clicking on a tab, instead of the Shelf expanding to show the contents of that tab like it does now, it would open the equivalent of a sub-dock. That is, the tab section itself would stay put, using as little screen space as possible, but a sub-dock would pop-out of that tab (and the tab would be marked/displayed as an 'active tab' as long as the sub-dock was open).

What are the advantages of this?

Well, for starters a Drawer Shelf would be able to do something that the Shelf can't do, which is to have multiple tabs/drawers open at the same time (look at the customer's screenshot at the very top of the post, now imagine that instead of a vertical dock with icons at the left side of the screen using a lot of space, the parent was actually a simple vertical row of Shelf tabs).

Second, since the equivalent of a collapsed Shelf does not use a lot of screen space (unlike a parent dock), the tabs could always be visible without stealing too much usable screen area. Being a single object, it would also be a lot easier to make it reserve screen space so the collapsed drawers/tabs are not covered by maximized windows.

Third, Drawers are a lot easier to configure if all the drawers/tabs are inside a single object (in the old idea, each Drawer would be an independent object/single-row single-tab Shelf, each with its own configuration settings). Here since all the tabs/drawers would be inside the same object, there would only be a need for a single configuration panel, as it happens now with the Shelf.

Fourth, it would be a lot easier for me to implement Drawers, since it would be basically re-using code, shapes, themes, etc, all stuff that is already there, with some minimal changes.

Fifth, with the contents of drawers being displayed in sub-docks, drawers would have all the advantages of docks (e.g.; magnifying icons).

There are some disadvantages too, of course: docks cannot scroll to show hidden content, so, unlike you can with the Shelf, you would only be able to have 'Regular' tab types in a Drawer Shelf (but, since docks can already do it, you could have a tab/drawer dedicated to showing running applications in the associated sub-dock, and another showing the systray, for instance). Another disadvantage is that docks do not support text labels like the Shelf does.

What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:18 am 
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winstep wrote:
Quote:
An email I got from a customer with a screenshot of how he uses Nexus Ultimate prompted me to want to discuss some ideas with you guys. For the time being these are just ideas since, to actually implement them, I must first enable vertical and multiple Shelves.


Your idea sounds great, some questions:

-could this drawers be available for the right side also? Maybe even up-->down and down-->up?
-could the visible icon of the collapsed drawers be customised? (better visual clue of content), perhaps go further and give feedback if a change happens (some program in systray drawer demands attention it could flash; a change happens to one open program in the open apps drawers; etc)


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:56 am 
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Vlad wrote:
-could this drawers be available for the right side also? Maybe even up-->down and down-->up?


That is the idea. You would be able to place a Drawer 'shelf' at any of the four screen edges.

Vlad wrote:
-could the visible icon of the collapsed drawers be customised


What visible icon? The tabs would just display text, just like a collapsed Shelf does now.

Vlad wrote:
perhaps go further and give feedback if a change happens (some program in systray drawer demands attention it could flash; a change happens to one open program in the open apps drawers; etc)


Hmmmm... not sure. Perhaps. Perhaps we could make the tab of a closed drawer alternate between Active and Inactive when flashing for attention. But the uses would be very limited, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 am 
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winstep wrote:

Quote:
What visible icon? The tabs would just display text, just like a collapsed Shelf does now.


Sorry, looking at the pictures you provided (crop to example drawers):
Attachment:
simple screenshot.jpg
simple screenshot.jpg [ 15.69 KiB | Viewed 16318 times ]
and at your comment:
Quote:
Another disadvantage is that docks do not support text labels like the Shelf does.
I`ve got the wrong impresion that those new drawers will not have labels like shelfs, but icons, more like docks.
Anyway, I think in most cases text will make more sense anyway.
I guess I did not pay enough attention to your post, you were talking about docks in drawers that will display running apps and systray icons and not the drawer itself doing that.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:10 am 
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Ok, just to make it clear: what I am imagining for the tabs/drawers is a static collapsed Shelf, i.e.; all you can see is the tabs with the text.

When you click on one of those tabs a sub-dock pops out of the text tab (if this was a click on a Shelf tab, the Shelf would expand at this point, but here nothing like that happens, the tabs remain where they are, except the tab you just clicked on lights up - i.e.; becomes active - just like when you select a tab in the Shelf now). However, the sub-dock that pops out is a separate entity from the parent tabs. In other words, the tabs only act as 'triggers' for the sub-docks.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Hi Jorge,

One or even better more shelves behaving like drawers sounds very effective and convenient. I always wished even docks would behave more like that: now we have to click on a dock item to expand the related sub-dock while mouse-over it only enlarges the icon. It would be so much more convenient when mouse-over a dock item the related sub-dock would expand right away. Personally I'm a fan of quick access: the less clicks the better when it comes down to repetitive actions.

Anyway, I think I understand your proposed idea and so far I think it is pretty much ideal behavior. See attached a visualisation of what I think you are aiming at.
Note there will rise an issue or two:

1) (normal/current behavior)

2) with collapsed shelf - when mouse-over or click on shelf tab: the actual tab might contain more items than an expanded tab can contain. Would that expand a multiple row sub-tab or feature a scroll button?

3) with expanded shelf: should the shelf contain tab category icons |(like in docks) and the active tab expand showing it contents OR should both the shelf and expanded tab contain identical contents?

Personally I think the best solution is an option in the individual shelf properties: it either behaves like 1 (current behavior) OR 2 (new style) OR 3 (shelf behaving like current dock, containing tab icons and active tab expanding showing its own icons.

Roberto


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Jorge, what tabs?!! All I can see is a nice looking woman...oh, oh, I see them now!! :lol:

This is a great idea. Will the drawers be able to totally hide? Also what happens with a setup like mine? All four sides are used, and all of my hotspot settings are used up.

I have all corners and all sides being used for bumping.

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:15 am 
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Just so we understand the timetable: to implement Drawers I first need to implement the ability to create multiple Shelves (and also vertical Shelves).

This will take some time and a lot of thought, mostly because it can only be accomplished by heavily modifying internal data structures and routines which, until now, were written to handle a single Shelf.

Because v17.12 had a couple of semi-serious bugs, before I tackle these problem in earnest I will have to make a quick maintenance release. Only once that is out of the way can I seriously start working on this. For now I am just throwing ideas around...

RobertoM wrote:
It would be so much more convenient when mouse-over a dock item the related sub-dock would expand right away. Personally I'm a fan of quick access: the less clicks the better when it comes down to repetitive actions.


But that is something you already CAN do:

Dock Properties -> Behavior tab -> Sub-Docks -> Open sub-docks on mouseover

Likewise, you can also open Shelf tabs simply by mousing over them:

Shelf Properties -> Behavior tab -> Activation Settings -> Select a different tab just by mousing over it

RobertoM wrote:
Anyway, I think I understand your proposed idea and so far I think it is pretty much ideal behavior. See attached a visualisation of what I think you are aiming at.


Thanks for going to the trouble of making it.

So, option 1 is the normal Shelf. Option 2 is indeed how I envision something like this working. Of course, in option 2 there would be no 'hide/expand' icon in the mini-tab, because there would be nothing to expand - it would just be the tabs.

Functionally the major advantages of a 'Drawer Shelf', if we can call it that, is how the associated sub-docks would be a single click away while using very little screen real estate when closed, and also how the categories are identified by text instead of images. Compare the former to the current dock/sub-docks method: since a dock uses a large amount of screen space, it is usually hidden - so, to open a sub-dock we first have to bump the screen edge to activate the dock, then click on the sub-dock icon in the dock. Then the dock must hide again, etc...

Personally, as a developer, option 2 also has the advantage that it can be implemented with very few changes to the code in relation to a normal Shelf and, VERY IMPORTANTLY, it requires no new theme bitmaps, so it's backwards compatible with older themes from the get go.

RobertoM wrote:
2) with collapsed shelf - when mouse-over or click on shelf tab: the actual tab might contain more items than an expanded tab can contain. Would that expand a multiple row sub-tab or feature a scroll button?


No. The tab contents will appear in a sub-dock. Docks don't have scroll buttons, so the number of items they can show is limited to available screen space. This is also the reason why Drawer Shelves, unlike the normal Shelf, will only allow three different tab types: Regular, Systray, Running Applications.

An added benefit of not having a single 'tab body' is that we can, if we want, have multiple sub-docks open at the same time, e.g.; normally you would click on Tab1 the sub-dock associated to Tab1 would open, click on Tab2 the Tab1 sub-dock would automatically close and the Tab2 sub-dock would open, click on Tab2 again and the Tab2 sub-dock closes. Optionally we could make it so that when clicking on Tab2 the Tab1 sub-dock would remain open instead of closing automatically. Perhaps we can use a CTRL/SHIFT + mouse click combination to accomplish this (e.g.; press CTRL when left clicking on a tab and the previously open sub-docks do not close automatically). We'll see...

RobertoM wrote:
3) with expanded shelf: should the shelf contain tab category icons |(like in docks) and the active tab expand showing it contents OR should both the shelf and expanded tab contain identical contents?


None of those. In fact, you ALREADY have this functionality available to you in the normal Shelf, it just has nothing to do with the tabs. You can already add *sub-docks* to a Regular Shelf tab by right-clicking on the tab body -> Insert New Shelf Item -> In-Shelf Dock. Give it a try. :)

Windy wrote:
Jorge, what tabs?!! All I can see is a nice looking woman...oh, oh, I see them now!! :lol:


Ahahah, yeah, makes it hard to focus on the other parts of the screenshot. :)

Windy wrote:
This is a great idea. Will the drawers be able to totally hide? Also what happens with a setup like mine? All four sides are used, and all of my hotspot settings are used up.


Well, the idea is for them to be always visible, no? Otherwise you might as well use sub-docks. But yes, I suppose I could come up with something to make the tabs slide in and out of the screen edge.

As for your setup, you could have multiple Drawer Shelves sharing the same screen edge - a Shelf does not need to span the full screen width. One on the right, another on the left, normal Shelf in the middle with centered tabs like you have it now.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:30 am 
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Windy wrote:
This is a great idea. Will the drawers be able to totally hide? Also what happens with a setup like mine? All four sides are used, and all of my hotspot settings are used up.


winstep wrote:
Well, the idea is for them to be always visible, no? Otherwise you might as well use sub-docks. But yes, I suppose I could come up with something to make the tabs slide in and out of the screen edge.

As for your setup, you could have multiple Drawer Shelves sharing the same screen edge - a Shelf does not need to span the full screen width. One on the right, another on the left, normal Shelf in the middle with centered tabs like you have it now.


There is screen space at the top and bottom of the docks on the left and right side. Would it be possible for drawers to be placed in those locations so I wouldn't be limited to only vertical drawers on the left and right of the Shelf at the top?

Also, some time ago I tried sub-docks, but for some reason I didn't like them. I can't remember what the reason was. However, it appears that the drawers would be more to my liking.

I just tried to activate sub-docks using the dock on the bottom to try it out and I couldn't get it to work. I followed the directions you gave to a poster earlier.

winstep wrote:
But that is something you already CAN do:

Dock Properties -> Behavior tab -> Sub-Docks -> Open sub-docks on mouseover


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:39 am 
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Windy wrote:
There is screen space at the top and bottom of the docks on the left and right side. Would it be possible for drawers to be placed in those locations so I wouldn't be limited to only vertical drawers on the left and right of the Shelf at the top?


Sure, you just can't have many tabs/drawers in order to fit in that limited space.

Windy wrote:
I just tried to activate sub-docks using the dock on the bottom to try it out and I couldn't get it to work. I followed the directions you gave to a poster earlier.


You're going to have to give me more details than that.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Ok, something else I'm currently working on improving, and an opinion would also be nice:

I just got a Nexus Ultimate customer complaining that when he opens a full screen application on his primary monitor the modules on a dock placed located in his secondary monitor stop updating.

Surprisingly enough, this is by design, a decision made many years ago when doing so actually made sense because CPUs only had one core and nobody had multiple-monitor systems.

It was a time when people were still very sensitive to how much CPU and memory each application used when idle: with single core CPUs and 3D accelerator graphic cards still in their infancy, every little bit of extra performance mattered when running a game. If a 3rd party application running in the background reduced your frame rate in any noticeable way, it would be quickly booted off the system.

Because of this, when the Winstep application detects that a full screen application is running, it assumes it's a game and *deliberately* stops updating the modules to save CPU cycles (on a single monitor system the docks, etc, would no longer be visible anyway, so this did not matter).

Things have come a long way since then. Many people have multi-monitor systems these days (me included), and basically all modern CPUs are dual core or more.

Since games rarely use more than one CPU core, using a bit of CPU while a game is running is also no longer as detrimental as it once was: while the game runs on one core and has it all for itself, the other core takes care of all the Windows desktop applications, etc...

Still, as the saying goes, I think there can never be enough of a good thing.

As things stand currently, only desktop modules don't stop updating when you open a full screen application, but that ONLY if the desktop module is not on the primary monitor. Open a full screen application on a secondary monitor (for instance, a full screen Youtube video) and the desktop module on the primary monitor will stop updating (as well as all modules in all docks, regardless of which monitor they are).

It is not just modules that stop updating when you open a full screen application: if you have the raindrop effect with audio enabled, for instance, the audio automatically stops playing (but that is a VERY good thing). Animated icons stop animating and mouseover effect animations also stop playing.

This can currently be very bad if all you are doing is running a full screen video on a secondary monitor: mouse over the dock in your primary monitors and it will respond and update, but ONLY while the mouse is over the dock. As soon as you move the mouse away from it, all effect animations freeze where they are.

So, as it currently is, it's a bloody mess.

Today I decided to fix this, by only preventing docks, modules, etc, from updating if they are on the same monitor the full screen application is running on.

I suppose I could add (or rather, keep) an extra layer of CPU activity reduction (for instance, make modules not update as fast anywhere if a full screen application is running), stop cosmetic animations such as Wanda swimming on the dock, etc, and even add an optional setting to the Performance dialog for this (e.g.; something like 'Decrease CPU usage when running a full screen application such as a game'), but... is it really worth the trouble?

That is my question for you guys.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:31 pm 
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winstep wrote:
I suppose I could add (or rather, keep) an extra layer of CPU activity reduction (for instance, make modules not update as fast anywhere if a full screen application is running), stop cosmetic animations such as Wanda swimming on the dock, etc, and even add an optional setting to the Performance dialog for this (e.g.; something like 'Decrease CPU usage when running a full screen application such as a game'), but... is it really worth the trouble?

That is my question for you guys.


Maybe a simple general on/off setting would be the best.
Stop everything, or let everything running, when a fullscreen application is running.

I don't know if a performance setting would work quite well.
There's still a chance that someone couldn't find the proper setting for him.

If anything, then maybe add single settings with checkmarks to the fullsceen settings.
Like:
Wanda on/off
Animations on/off
Speaking Clock on/off
etc.
So everyone could set it like it suits him the best.
In this dialogue you could also give some hints then, which settings will affect the CPU usage the most.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v17.12?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:18 pm 
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toniostarcevic wrote:
If anything, then maybe add single settings with checkmarks to the fullsceen settings.
Like:
Wanda on/off
Animations on/off
Speaking Clock on/off


I feel like that is just too much.

Also, don't forget, a full screen application could be anything: from an actual game to a full screen Youtube video. The Winstep application has no way of knowing if it really is a game or not.

Stopping everything for a full screen Youtube video seems stupid to me. I'm more and more inclined to only stop animations/etc happening on the same monitor the full screen application is running - simpler, no need for extra settings, etc.

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