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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:35 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Opera is on the tasklist exclusion list btw., but it still happens when I remove it from the list.


Some applications use a 'launcher' proxy, which launches the main application and then exits.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Opera is on the tasklist exclusion list btw., but it still happens when I remove it from the list.


Some applications use a 'launcher' proxy, which launches the main application and then exits.

Ah yes, of course, that explains it! Why didn't I think of that? Idiotic, disk space wasting way of doing things - they all keep installing new versions into a new folder while keeping all the old ones. :/ And again, Opera is the worst offender. Shame really, as it's faster than FF, less resaource hungry and offers free VPN and ad blocker albeit aat the price of a crappier gfx engine.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:54 am 
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winstep wrote:

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Sorry to hear that, Vlad. Hope everything turns out ok. :cry:


Thank you Jorge, for your nice words. I am afraid it came up wrong, there is no problem that I am facing now, just that I am a lot more busy. Many stuff needing attention at the same time.


About bugs, here is a new one:


If you make a new tab in the workshelf, of the Folder type at least, you set the path to the folder and give it a name ( the one that apear in the title). Then you click ok and everything is fine. But if you open that tab proprieties again, the name field defaults to the "Folder" name, so unless you click cancel, you have to input that again.



Idea:
You constantly struggle with finding a balance between giving more options to existing/advanced users and the new one that would prefer simpler/different settings. Why not make some profile, based on average usage statistics/request that you have? Meaning, you already have a profile: the default instalation setup, give that a meaningful name, add some settings (like for example that drag and drop of images on dock icons to change the look thing), hide the advanced stuff and inform the user that if he wants more, he can swich to the advanced profile, that exposes every setting or something in-between. You can even have, in time, more profiles tailored towards different categories of users. Got this ideea from the development of Blender 2.8 (they want to do something like this, to make the software more approachable to new users, given that their interface is really, really complex :) )

Anyway, hope that helps in some way. I have come to appreciate your expertise when it comes to your own software development, so I like to think that even if I do not have the most practical and spot on idea, at least I can be for you something like Dr. Watson for Sherlock Holmes and help you have a glimpse of genius while reading. :)


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Vlad wrote:
....About bugs, here is a new one:

If you make a new tab in the workshelf, of the Folder type at least, you set the path to the folder and give it a name ( the one that apear in the title). Then you click ok and everything is fine. But if you open that tab proprieties again, the name field defaults to the "Folder" name, so unless you click cancel, you have to input that again.

I'll try and replicate that one.
Vlad wrote:
Idea:
You constantly struggle with finding a balance between giving more options to existing/advanced users and the new one that would prefer simpler/different settings. Why not make some profile, based on average usage statistics/request that you have? Meaning, you already have a profile: the default instalation setup, give that a meaningful name, add some settings (like for example that drag and drop of images on dock icons to change the look thing), hide the advanced stuff and inform the user that if he wants more, he can swich to the advanced profile, that exposes every setting or something in-between. You can even have, in time, more profiles tailored towards different categories of users. Got this ideea from the development of Blender 2.8 (they want to do something like this, to make the software more approachable to new users, given that their interface is really, really complex :) )

There is a lot, a hell of a lot, in what Vlad is saying there I think. Thee first time Winstep Xtreme (or a single component) is run, have an intermediate window pop up with options like that, e.g., choose '1) My main interest is productivity, 2) May main interest is eye candy'. Then, further options accordingly, '3) I am new to this, keep it simple, 4) I have some experience, give me some options, 5) I am a seasoned user of Winstep or similar applications, give me the lot!'

Then, not only is a suitable default config and default theme loaded according to those selections, but the defaults for all options are saved/already present in 'Backups' so the user can easily return to these at any time.

Furthermore, when changing themes, there should be an option to either keep the user's current config or use the theme creator's default (and save the current config). (I have posted on that before.) Simples. ;) (This option would be set once, but could later be changed again, so it doesn't pop up every time the user wants to change a theme.) Also, previews of a theme (as e.g. shown as thumbs in a 'Themes' menu, or in the 'Themes' tab in prefs, should show a full screen grab of the theme creator's default config (already included in the theme archive, of course). Also, positions for all items should be saved with a theme, with relative coordinates, i.e., e.g., 'Dock 1 = n pixels from right edge, n pixels from top, etc., so that it is resolution-independent.)

Just my own 2p's worth. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:25 pm 
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So, I get bored, I add more alarm overlays. Scratched Glass, Foggy Glass, Space and Sunny Day.

Here is a 4K screenshot showing off all the currently available overlays:


Attachments:
AlarmOverlays.jpg
AlarmOverlays.jpg [ 1.36 MiB | Viewed 12683 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Vlad wrote:
I am afraid it came up wrong, there is no problem that I am facing now, just that I am a lot more busy.


Well, glad to know that then! :)

Vlad wrote:
About bugs, here is a new one:


Fixed, thanks! :)

Vlad wrote:
Why not make some profile, based on average usage statistics/request that you have? Meaning, you already have a profile: the default instalation setup, give that a meaningful name, add some settings (like for example that drag and drop of images on dock icons to change the look thing), hide the advanced stuff and inform the user that if he wants more, he can swich to the advanced profile, that exposes every setting or something in-between. You can even have, in time, more profiles tailored towards different categories of users.


As you said, I already have a profile, which is the default settings. I try to make defaults as general purpose as possible.

What you are suggesting doesn't really work, unfortunately: first, it would be a nightmare having to deal with two very different settings panels (one for beginners, another for advanced users), it would basically double my work.

Secondly, and most importantly, I'll let you in on a secret that explains why this would be a gigantic waste of time: EVERYONE thinks of themselves as an advanced user, even if they are really not. :)

Vlad wrote:
Anyway, hope that helps in some way. I have come to appreciate your expertise when it comes to your own software development, so I like to think that even if I do not have the most practical and spot on idea, at least I can be for you something like Dr. Watson for Sherlock Holmes and help you have a glimpse of genius while reading. :)


Ahah. :)

All feedback is more than welcome, even if I don't agree with it. I live, eat and sleep Winstep, so a perspective coming from a fresh pair of eyes is always worth its weight in gold.

nexter wrote:
Thee first time Winstep Xtreme (or a single component) is run, have an intermediate window pop up with options


And I'll let you in on another little secret, Ric (for users, because any developer worth its salt already knows this by heart): NOBODY actually reads or pays any attention to initial dialogs, they just press OK to get on with it. They want to start the application, and that dialog is in their way, so they get rid of it ASAP. :)

Besides, there is another reason why this is so: you can put a lot of options in front of the user, but they won't make any sense to him (i.e.; he won't really know what to choose, what is best or worse for him) UNTIL he has built a mental model of how the application works and what it does.

And that he can only do over time by actually USING the application. See?

nexter wrote:
Also, previews of a theme (as e.g. shown as thumbs in a 'Themes' menu, or in the 'Themes' tab in prefs, should show a full screen grab of the theme creator's default config (already included in the theme archive, of course).


Theme previews are 'live' in the Themes tab in Preferences, which also automatically creates 'full screen' preview thumbnails of the theme to be used in the Themes tab, etc...

nexter wrote:
Also, positions for all items should be saved with a theme, with relative coordinates, i.e., e.g., 'Dock 1 = n pixels from right edge, n pixels from top, etc., so that it is resolution-independent.)


Winstep already 'remembers' previous desktop module positions as you switch between different themes/screen resolutions. Docks and the Shelf are normally docked, so they don't need that.

What you seem to be implying is tying a theme with the objects/screen positions, and that will not work with an application like Winstep Xtreme where the user decides what is enabled and what is not.

Remember HVD/NextView where the theme was tied to content? First doing it that way got rid of previous user-content/layout/organization every time the user switched to a new theme, second, the theme only really worked visually if set up exactly as the skinner envisioned it (which is why it was forced that way on the user).

Here content is 100% decided by the user, NEVER by the skinner. Furthermore, the last thing I want is skinners making square modules so they can all 'fit together' like pieces of a puzzle. I want Winstep themes to be and remain as much free form as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:11 pm 
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winstep wrote:
So, I get bored, I add more alarm overlays. Scratched Glass, Foggy Glass, Space and Sunny Day.

Here is a 4K screenshot showing off all the currently available overlays:

Well, we'll have to grant you your little boredom avoidance distractions, won't we? LOL!

Of the ones I haven't seen before, Scratched Glass, Foggy Glass and the diffraction one esp. look good to me. Also getting to like the Dirt one after all. :)

Now, why can't you get bored enough and distract yourself with the Theme Builder, to the point of distraction!? LOL!

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:21 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Now, why can't you get bored enough and distract yourself with the Theme Builder, to the point of distraction!? LOL!


Did you see what I did in the About tab of the Theme Builder because of how bored I was with the Theme Builder itself? lol

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:03 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Vlad wrote:
....Why not make some profile, based on average usage statistics/request that you have? Meaning, you already have a profile: the default instalation setup.... more profiles tailored towards different categories of users.

As you said, I already have a profile, which is the default settings. I try to make defaults as general purpose as possible.

What you are suggesting doesn't really work, unfortunately: first, it would be a nightmare having to deal with two very different settings panels (one for beginners, another for advanced users), it would basically double my work.

Secondly, and most importantly, I'll let you in on a secret that explains why this would be a gigantic waste of time: EVERYONE thinks of themselves as an advanced user, even if they are really not. :)

Yes, thinking about it, probably more than double your work.

Second point, yes indeed! They always do. And often as not they're complete id**** and end up in a right mess! So, true, it would be pretty pointless in that respect.
winstep wrote:
.... All feedback is more than welcome, even if I don't agree with it. I live, eat and sleep Winstep, so a perspective coming from a fresh pair of eyes is always worth its weight in gold.

Seconded. If only we could have more of it from more people!
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Thee first time Winstep Xtreme (or a single component) is run, have an intermediate window pop up with options

And I'll let you in on another little secret, Ric (for users, because any developer worth its salt already knows this by heart): NOBODY actually reads or pays any attention to initial dialogs, they just press OK to get on with it. They want to start the application, and that dialog is in their way, so they get rid of it ASAP. :)

Besides, there is another reason why this is so: you can put a lot of options in front of the user, but they won't make any sense to him (i.e.; he won't really know what to choose, what is best or worse for him) UNTIL he has built a mental model of how the application works and what it does.

And that he can only do over time by actually USING the application. See?

1), alas, you're absolutely right there as concerns the majority of ordinary users. :(
2) yes, there is a lot of truth in that Jorge, and 3) true, agreed.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Also, previews of a theme (as e.g. shown as thumbs in a 'Themes' menu, or in the 'Themes' tab in prefs, should show a full screen grab of the theme creator's default config (already included in the theme archive, of course).

Theme previews are 'live' in the Themes tab in Preferences, which also automatically creates 'full screen' preview thumbnails of the theme to be used in the Themes tab, etc...

Yes, I know, but what I mean is a preview of the theme as the theme creator intended it. (Along with a theme creator's default config, based on a universal, pre-defined standard that theme builders would have to adhere to.) Oh, and I have a full preview of my own themes in my themes folders and it is this that gets shown in the thumbs in e.g. a 'Themes' menu, though of course not in the themes tab.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Also, positions for all items should be saved with a theme, with relative coordinates, i.e., e.g., 'Dock 1 = n pixels from right edge, n pixels from top, etc., so that it is resolution-independent.)

Winstep already 'remembers' previous desktop module positions as you switch between different themes/screen resolutions. Docks and the Shelf are normally docked, so they don't need that.

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Most of my themes have a free floating shelf, some also floating dock/s for example.

And when you switch to a theme you haven't used before, everything there can end up in a right jumble, with a lot of mods on top of each other and/or on top docks, shelf or startbar.
winstep wrote:
What you seem to be implying is tying a theme with the objects/screen positions, and that will not work with an application like Winstep Xtreme where the user decides what is enabled and what is not.

No, what I mean is that this should only apply the fist time a user loads a theme, or when he has not done any placing of items himself yet. Sure the user should decide what he wants to use and what not to use, but he should have the possibility, at least initially, of seeing what a particular theme has to offer and then he can remove/add whatever he wants or move things around, etc. To begin with, new users especially would not have a clue what is or is not available etc., and this would save a lot of the initial confusion users tend to experience. (Of course, we would not want theme builders to try and play silly buggers, hence my suggestion of agreed pre-defined universal standards, enforced by some sort of license key like device which could be blocked if they mess around.)
winstep wrote:
Remember HVD/NextView where the theme was tied to content? First doing it that way got rid of previous user-content/layout/organization every time the user switched to a new theme, second, the theme only really worked visually if set up exactly as the skinner envisioned it (which is why it was forced that way on the esuser).

Here content is 100% decided by the user, NEVER by the skinner. Furthermore, the last thing I want is skinners making square modules so they can all 'fit together' like pieces of a puzzle. I want Winstep themes to be and remain as much free form as possible.

LOL! Yes, of course I remember HVD - such a mess! Ghastly that was. (And shaky - literally, in that the whole thing could suddenly shift and jump about and all sorts, and even completely collapse. And not only in the betas.)

And yes, of course I ageww with you 100% that the user should be able to choose content, and also regarding free form. No ifs, no buts about all of that.

That said, initially the user (and I mean mostly the new user) should be able to see what is available and how it looks best, and then he can decide to choose and change to his heart's content. You see where I'm coming from? The new user is confused and baffled and would not know what is there and where it can be found, and what the app is capable of. Let's make it simple for him so he can decide, after trying the theme's defaults, what to keep and where and what to discard.

Certainly, in general one really would not want 'cubes' or similar of square mods, if the user wanted this he could always move things around to suit himself. For example, personally I sometimes do mods, esp. (analogue) clocks, to look as if they are actually inside the background, as long as there is a wallpaper of a suitable colour. (You'll see some of that sometime soon-ish. :) ) Sometimes they don't even need that as they might be completely or almost completely transparent. It's quite fun, especially on a large hi-res screen. (That is another point actually - skinners perhaps should, wherever possible, do a hi-res version as well as a standard one. Things can look awfully small, even tiny and unusable, on a hi res.) Also, we see too many themes that are formulaic, all following a similar or even identical formula, and everything (or almost everything) is starting to look very samey.

That reminds me, I trawled Winstep themes on Wincustomize, and really, it looks bad. Within a few pages of 9 themes each you get back to 2009/2008 - about ten years! There used to be more themes in a single year back in the old days. I'll grant you, some of that has to be due to the difficulty of creating an original theme in the absence of a theme builder, etc. Also, themes were simpler then, fewer mods, no Nexus....

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:11 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Now, why can't you get bored enough and distract yourself with the Theme Builder, to the point of distraction!? LOL!


Did you see what I did in the About tab of the Theme Builder because of how bored I was with the Theme Builder itself? lol


LOL! Yeah, click on 'OK' it exits, you fiend! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:36 am 
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Regarding profile idea, glad to find out things that I did not know about user behaviour. Thanks for the insides Jorge!
I have played a little with the Alarm LCD overlays and I think they can be made to look really good, if you choose the right color. Good job!

I might have found another abnormal behaviour:
1 When you open the MP Player controls if you change the volume by scrolling the mouse wheel, it controls the volume of the player, but if you use volume keys on the keyboard ( I have Logitech G19s with a volume wheel) the volume of the MP is adjusted at the same time as the Master sistem volume, until it reaches 0% or 100%, then only the sistem volume is adjusted. Volume keys/wheel of the keyboard adjust the sistem volume normaly ( does not influence the MP volume) when the MP controls are not shown.
2 Also, don`t know is this is the intended behaviour: I have set the alarm LCD on water droplets whit a custom color of deep blue something, on alarm is working ok, but on MP player controls it only applies the custom color, not the water droplets overlay.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:04 am 
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nexter wrote:
LOL! Yeah, click on 'OK' it exits, you fiend! ;)


LOL. Actually I meant all the logo, water and rain animations, the music, clicking and dragging on the water, etc... :wink:

Vlad wrote:
I have played a little with the Alarm LCD overlays and I think they can be made to look really good, if you choose the right color. Good job!


Thanks. :) I'll probably add a couple more before I am done with them.

The Winstep Alarm Manager could probably be turned into a stand-alone application at this point (i.e.; sold separately for those who don't want Nexus Ultimate or Winstep Xtreme) lol


Vlad wrote:
1 When you open the MP Player controls if you change the volume by scrolling the mouse wheel, it controls the volume of the player, but if you use volume keys on the keyboard ( I have Logitech G19s with a volume wheel) the volume of the MP is adjusted at the same time as the Master sistem volume, until it reaches 0% or 100%, then only the sistem volume is adjusted. Volume keys/wheel of the keyboard adjust the sistem volume normaly ( does not influence the MP volume) when the MP controls are not shown.


Dang! I forgot that the volume multimedia keys on the keyboard act on the master system volume. Fixed, lol

Vlad wrote:
2 Also, don`t know is this is the intended behaviour: I have set the alarm LCD on water droplets whit a custom color of deep blue something, on alarm is working ok, but on MP player controls it only applies the custom color, not the water droplets overlay.


That's by design. The Media Control Bar will take on the colors of the current alarm LCD settings, but will not use any of its overlays.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:08 am 
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Added a 'Random' option to the LCD Alarm overlays. Select that in the list of overlays and you get a random overlay each time an alarm reminder pops up.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:10 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Yes, I know, but what I mean is a preview of the theme as the theme creator intended it. (Along with a theme creator's default config, based on a universal, pre-defined standard that theme builders would have to adhere to.) Oh, and I have a full preview of my own themes in my themes folders and it is this that gets shown in the thumbs in e.g. a 'Themes' menu, though of course not in the themes tab.


Maybe creators could include settings backup file with shelfs and docks with some standard fitting icons, modules
though since settings are stored in registry not sure how wise that would be


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:37 pm 
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seeker wrote:
Maybe creators could include settings backup file with shelfs and docks with some standard fitting icons, modules
though since settings are stored in registry not sure how wise that would be


Not wise at all. lol

Anyway, regarding access to docks from NextSTART, to try and organize my thought process (please feel free to come up with suggestions while I am still struggling with this):

One of the main advantages of using QL hotspots would be to have the dock pop up right above the mouse pointer/QL button, in effect acting just like a sub-dock, which would then go away when you clicked on the QL button again or somewhere else other than the (sub)dock itself.

This, however, implies that these docks would only be visible when invoked by NextSTART (like normal sub-docks which only become visible when invoked by the parent dock and close when you click somewhere else).

But since you need to create the docks first in WorkShelf (so NextSTART knows they exist and let you associate them to NextSTART) they need to be visible at least when you first create them.

We could then perhaps disable these docks to make them invisible from within WorkShelf.

So, if NextSTART invokes a dock that is currently disabled, it will ignore that dock's position information and makes the dock act like a sub-dock instead (pop up next to the mouse pointer, go away when you click somewhere else, etc...).

If, however, the dock is NOT disabled, then NextSTART will simply activate that dock, like an alternative activation mechanism.

What do you guys think? My fear is that using the enable/disable mechanism to make certain docks act like sub-docks when invoked by NextSTART might be a bit confusing?

Otherwise I think it is just perfect: you can enable the dock when you want to add stuff to it from within WorkShelf and disable it again once finished, or you can keep it disabled and add stuff to it from within NextSTART (drag stuff over the QL button to make the dock automatically pop up after a short delay, proceed to drop onto the dock).

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