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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:57 pm 
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winstep wrote:
seeker wrote:
Maybe creators could include settings backup file with shelfs and docks with some standard fitting icons, modules
though since settings are stored in registry not sure how wise that would be


Not wise at all. lol

Anyway, regarding access to docks from NextSTART, to try and organize my thought process (please feel free to come up with suggestions while I am still struggling with this):

One of the main advantages of using QL hotspots would be to have the dock pop up right above the mouse pointer/QL button, in effect acting just like a sub-dock, which would then go away when you clicked on the QL button again or somewhere else other than the (sub)dock itself.

This, however, implies that these docks would only be visible when invoked by NextSTART (like normal sub-docks which only become visible when invoked by the parent dock and close when you click somewhere else).

But since you need to create the docks first in WorkShelf (so NextSTART knows they exist and let you associate them to NextSTART) they need to be visible at least when you first create them.

We could then perhaps disable these docks to make them invisible from within WorkShelf.

So, if NextSTART invokes a dock that is currently disabled, it will ignore that dock's position information and makes the dock act like a sub-dock instead (pop up next to the mouse pointer, go away when you click somewhere else, etc...).

If, however, the dock is NOT disabled, then NextSTART will simply activate that dock, like an alternative activation mechanism.

What do you guys think? My fear is that using the enable/disable mechanism to make certain docks act like sub-docks when invoked by NextSTART might be a bit confusing?

Otherwise I think it is just perfect: you can enable the dock when you want to add stuff to it from within WorkShelf and disable it again once finished, or you can keep it disabled and add stuff to it from within NextSTART (drag stuff over the QL button to make the dock automatically pop up after a short delay, proceed to drop onto the dock).


sounds good to me, maybe ad enable/disable to the dock context menu? now it only has duplicate, create new, delete under dock/shelf managment


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:12 am 
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winstep wrote:
....Anyway, regarding access to docks from NextSTART, to try and organize my thought process (please feel free to come up with suggestions while I am still struggling with this):

One of the main advantages of using QL hotspots would be to have the dock pop up right above the mouse pointer/QL button, in effect acting just like a sub-dock, which would then go away when you clicked on the QL button again or somewhere else other than the (sub)dock itself.

This, however, implies that these docks would only be visible when invoked by NextSTART (like normal sub-docks which only become visible when invoked by the parent dock and close when you click somewhere else).

But since you need to create the docks first in WorkShelf (so NextSTART knows they exist and let you associate them to NextSTART) they need to be visible at least when you first create them.

We could then perhaps disable these docks to make them invisible from within WorkShelf.

So, if NextSTART invokes a dock that is currently disabled, it will ignore that dock's position information and makes the dock act like a sub-dock instead (pop up next to the mouse pointer, go away when you click somewhere else, etc...).

If, however, the dock is NOT disabled, then NextSTART will simply activate that dock, like an alternative activation mechanism.

What do you guys think? My fear is that using the enable/disable mechanism to make certain docks act like sub-docks when invoked by NextSTART might be a bit confusing?

Otherwise I think it is just perfect: you can enable the dock when you want to add stuff to it from within WorkShelf and disable it again once finished, or you can keep it disabled and add stuff to it from within NextSTART (drag stuff over the QL button to make the dock automatically pop up after a short delay, proceed to drop onto the dock).

Hmm, very complicated, and yes, confusing. At least, at first glance and probably confuse the hell out of inexperienced users. But, on the whole, sounds good and just about the perfect solution.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:45 am 
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seeker wrote:
sounds good to me, maybe ad enable/disable to the dock context menu? now it only has duplicate, create new, delete under dock/shelf managment


Makes sense, I guess.

nexter wrote:
Hmm, very complicated, and yes, confusing. At least, at first glance and probably confuse the hell out of inexperienced users. But, on the whole, sounds good and just about the perfect solution.


What would you suggest?

The Enable/Disable mechanism is only required to have docks that only pop up through NextSTART. If you don't use it or know about it, NextSTART hotspots can still be used as alternate ways to activate existing docks.

I think my only issue with this is the names, i.e.; enable/disable doesn't exactly give the plot away, does it? lol

On the other hand, I suppose I could come up with a 'NextSTART Dock Only' setting or something like that instead, but in the end it would be doing the same as enable/disable. Worth the effort?

Besides, why do we use enable/disable anyway, instead of simply deleting the dock? So a dock does not become visible when the application runs, and can't be activated from inside the application either. Basically all the things we want from a NextSTART only dock.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:31 pm 
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And it's working yayyyyy! :)

Only one thing: for the time being, when you open a disabled dock via NextSTART, the dock opens close to the mouse pointer but currently it is only closing when you click on the NextSTART dock icon again.

This got me thinking: should I keep this behavior, i.e.; should the dock stay open and never close until you explicitly dismiss it by clicking on the NextSTART QL button again?

The advantage of this behavior is that it would make it a lot easier to populate NextSTART only docks (you open it, then just drag & drop stuff to it at will, as it will remain open until you deliberately close it). The disadvantage, of course, is that it would always require a click on the QL icon to close.

What do you guys think? Need feedback on this ASAP, please.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:39 pm 
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winstep wrote:
And it's working yayyyyy! :)

Only one thing: for the time being, when you open a disabled dock via NextSTART, the dock opens close to the mouse pointer but currently it is only closing when you click on the NextSTART dock icon again.

This got me thinking: should I keep this behavior, i.e.; should the dock stay open and never close until you explicitly dismiss it by clicking on the NextSTART QL button again?

The advantage of this behavior is that it would make it a lot easier to populate NextSTART only docks (you open it, then just drag & drop stuff to it at will, as it will remain open until you deliberately close it). The disadvantage, of course, is that it would always require a click on the QL icon to close.

What do you guys think? Need feedback on this ASAP, please.


i think it would be more hindrance than benefit, esp if youd want the dock to be on top


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:01 pm 
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seeker wrote:
i think it would be more hindrance than benefit, esp if youd want the dock to be on top


Ok, thanks for the feedback. It now closes automatically when you click outside of it.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Ok, we kind of have a problem: you can't drag files over Quick Launch buttons unless they are image files (PNG, ICO, TIF).

In other words, unlike with the dock and the Shelf, you can't drop documents into QL buttons so they are opened by the application associated to that QL button.

When it's not an image file, the taskbar assumes it's an item you want to add to the QL area and automatically makes room for it.

This, however, does not seem to be much of a problem: you can still open the dock first and then drag & drop an item to it, the dock will not close automatically if you left click an item and hold to drag (i.e.; without releasing the left mouse button).

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:25 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Ok, we kind of have a problem: you can't drag files over Quick Launch buttons unless they are image files (PNG, ICO, TIF).

In other words, unlike with the dock and the Shelf, you can't drop documents into QL buttons so they are opened by the application associated to that QL button.

When it's not an image file, the taskbar assumes it's an item you want to add to the QL area and automatically makes room for it.

This, however, does not seem to be much of a problem: you can still open the dock first and then drag & drop an item to it, the dock will not close automatically if you left click an item and hold to drag (i.e.; without releasing the left mouse button).


could you make it so that if you right click drag&drop into QL instead of making room it opens the dock associated with it, or would that be to much work?

first opening the dock then dragging stuff to dock icons to open sounds counterintuitive to me


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 pm 
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seeker wrote:
could you make it so that if you right click drag&drop into QL instead of making room it opens the dock associated with it, or would that be to much work?

first opening the dock then dragging stuff to dock icons to open sounds counterintuitive to me


Yeah, it's not how it's normally done.

But to do that it's going to require some work, as QL buttons do not support launching documents via drag & drop (and both things are obviously related).

In the mean time, things are not going well: I can open and close a normal sub-dock in quick succession (i.e.; clicking the sub-dock icon as fast as I can) until I turn blue in the face that nothing bad happens.

However, for some reason I haven't been able to phantom yet, when I do the same through NextSTART with a 'NextSTART only' dock eventually WorkShelf crashes with an Access Violation error in NTDLL.DLL.

I have gone through the code several times and already tried making it (the loading and unloading of sub-docks) as bullet proof as possible (as I said, no issues if I do that from within WorkShelf itself) but the damn thing still crashes when coming from NextSTART.

Not exactly sure what is going on yet.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Ok, looks like I fixed the crashes. Probably some kind of inter-process communication funky stuff...

Instead of WorkShelf directly opening the dock from the routine that receives the message it now sets a timer to do the actual job and returns immediately to the calling application (NextSTART).

Clicking on the dock icon in the NextSTART taskbar like there is no tomorrow is now as bullet proof as doing the same in a WorkShelf dock.

Yay! :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:08 am 
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This is actually quite cool... opening a dock from a NextSTART menu. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:50 am 
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winstep wrote:
What would you suggest?

The Enable/Disable mechanism is only required to have docks that only pop up through NextSTART. If you don't use it or know about it, NextSTART hotspots can still be used as alternate ways to activate existing docks.

Stick with the plan, Jorge, it's perfect. People will catch up on it.
winstep wrote:
I think my only issue with this is the names, i.e.; enable/disable doesn't exactly give the plot away, does it? lol

On the other hand, I suppose I could come up with a 'NextSTART Dock Only' setting or something like that instead, but in the end it would be doing the same as enable/disable. Worth the effort?

LOL! No, it doesn't *exactly* give it away.... Nah, not worth the effort I think.
winstep wrote:
Besides, why do we use enable/disable anyway, instead of simply deleting the dock? So a dock does not become visible when the application runs, and can't be activated from inside the application either. Basically all the things we want from a NextSTART only dock.

LOL! Take the Zen approach - make it so nothing works and leave everyone to contemplate how beautiful it is. :P

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:59 am 
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winstep wrote:
seeker wrote:
i think it would be more hindrance than benefit, esp if youd want the dock to be on top

Hang on a sec, this doesn't make sense - why would you possibly want a dock to be on top of z-order when it's going to get smoked the next time you click anything? It'd surely be as pointless as a man without legs competing in an a***-kicking contest... ;)
winstep wrote:
Ok, thanks for the feedback. It now closes automatically when you click outside of it.

Actually, I rather like the idea of it staying until you click the QL button again. Makes more sense also I think, and it's only a matter of a simple click.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:08 am 
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winstep wrote:
This is actually quite cool... opening a dock from a NextSTART menu. :)

Eheh :) And even more useful from a QL button in taskbar - fits in perfectly with something I have in mind, long term.... See my separate topic below. :) You'll either love that or absolutely hate it.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.3?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:20 am 
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I see a lot of talk here, maybe I will get the chance of reading it later this evening.

I think I have another bug ( this one thing is actually annoying me from the day one of using winstep):
I have a shutdown hotspot button on the desktop, with the default icon on it and no label showned. I am using the DarkTech theme. After creating the button everything is ok, but after a while ( sometimes longer sometimes shorter) the icon shifts and is no longer centered. Right clicking the hotspot and entering the preferences, followed by clicking ok, fixes the problem, for a while at least. The is happening again. I have played with the settings: icon size (prefered numbers like 16,32,64,128 and in-between; also button size auto and other values: even numbers), does not fix the problem.


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