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 Post subject: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:48 am 
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This is a change that seems to be generating a few complaints from users, so I thought I would address it here instead of explaining it in an individual basis:

In v18.8 I did change the order icons rows are displayed in a multi-row Shelf (i.e.; displaying more than one row of icons) for specific invert/position configurations, so that when the Shelf collapses (or you double click the tab header) and the collapse/expand animation plays the place where the rows end up is always consistent.

First of all, you should understand that the way it is now it is actually the CORRECT way. Before, it was WRONG.

Attachment:
TopShelf.jpg
TopShelf.jpg [ 57.4 KiB | Viewed 4356 times ]


In the screenshot above you have a Shelf docked at the top of the screen. The row at the bottom is now row 1, but before the changes the row at the bottom would be row 2 (i.e.; the 3 icons would appear at the bottom).

Now (v18.8 ):

Row 2
Row 1

Before (v18.5):

Row 1
Row 2

So, imagine the Shelf is set to display one row of icons but you expanded it to two rows by double clicking the tab header or dragging it up.

When you double clicked the tab header to collapse the Shelf back to one row, the animation would slide the tabs at the bottom of the Shelf (showing the three icons in row 2 in v18.5) up towards the bottom of the Shelf at the top. Because of this, the last before final frame of the animation would show the three icons in row 2 at the very top, which would then suddenly be replaced by the icons in row 1 in the final frame.

Now it's consistent: because row 1 is at the very bottom, that's the row that also ends up at the very top when the resizing animation finishes playing.

So, NOW it's right. BEFORE it was wrong.

The only problem is that people got used to the old behavior, so now they find it odd. I'm sorry, but all I can say is: this will definitely NOT be an issue to new users as this is the behavior they will run into in the first place, and in time you too will get used to the new behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:31 pm 
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winstep wrote:
This is a change that seems to be generating a few complaints from users, so I thought I would address it here instead of explaining it in an individual basis:

In v18.8 I did change the order icons rows are displayed in a multi-row Shelf (i.e.; displaying more than one row of icons) for specific invert/position configurations, so that when the Shelf collapses (or you double click the tab header) and the collapse/expand animation plays the place where the rows end up is always consistent.

First of all, you should understand that the way it is now it is actually the CORRECT way. Before, it was WRONG.

Attachment:
TopShelf.jpg


In the screenshot above you have a Shelf docked at the top of the screen. The row at the bottom is now row 1, but before the changes the row at the bottom would be row 2 (i.e.; the 3 icons would appear at the bottom).

Now (v18.8 ):

Row 2
Row 1

Before (v18.5):

Row 1
Row 2

So, imagine the Shelf is set to display one row of icons but you expanded it to two rows by double clicking the tab header or dragging it up.

When you double clicked the tab header to collapse the Shelf back to one row, the animation would slide the tabs at the bottom of the Shelf (showing the three icons in row 2 in v18.5) up towards the bottom of the Shelf at the top. Because of this, the last before final frame of the animation would show the three icons in row 2 at the very top, which would then suddenly be replaced by the icons in row 1 in the final frame.

Now it's consistent: because row 1 is at the very bottom, that's the row that also ends up at the very top when the resizing animation finishes playing.

So, NOW it's right. BEFORE it was wrong.

The only problem is that people got used to the old behavior, so now they find it odd. I'm sorry, but all I can say is: this will definitely NOT be an issue to new users as this is the behavior they will run into in the first place, and in time you too will get used to the new behavior.

Absolutely understood Jorge, and totally agree. Not having used top-edge shelf much before we got past 18.5, it not only feels right and natural, but is the only logical arrangement. (Unless of course you have the tabs at the top (i.e., you invert the shelf), in which case it not only seems but is all wrong, alas.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:05 am 
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nexter wrote:
Unless of course you have the tabs at the top (i.e., you invert the shelf), in which case it not only seems but is all wrong, alas.


Normally when you expand a Shelf, it's the tabs that move up or down.

However, if you have the Shelf docked to the top of the screen and the Shelf is inverted (i.e.; with the tabs ALSO at the top) then the tabs obviously cannot go anywhere - they're what 'anchors' the Shelf to the screen edge.

So, in this case it's the bottom of the Shelf that needs to roll up - for the same reasons detailed above, the first row icons still need to be at the bottom if you want them to smoothly scroll up. The only other alternative is NOT to scroll the icons at the bottom up but instead crop them (which, IMO, looks terrible).

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:54 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Unless of course you have the tabs at the top (i.e., you invert the shelf), in which case it not only seems but is all wrong, alas.

Normally when you expand a Shelf, it's the tabs that move up or down.

However, if you have the Shelf docked to the top of the screen and the Shelf is inverted (i.e.; with the tabs ALSO at the top) then the tabs obviously cannot go anywhere - they're what 'anchors' the Shelf to the screen edge.

So, in this case it's the bottom of the Shelf that needs to roll up - for the same reasons detailed above, the first row icons still need to be at the bottom if you want them to smoothly scroll up. The only other alternative is NOT to scroll the icons at the bottom up but instead crop them (which, IMO, looks terrible).

Yep, all makes sense when one thinks about it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:17 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Normally when you expand a Shelf, it's the tabs that move up or down.

However, if you have the Shelf docked to the top of the screen and the Shelf is inverted (i.e.; with the tabs ALSO at the top) then the tabs obviously cannot go anywhere - they're what 'anchors' the Shelf to the screen edge.

So, in this case it's the bottom of the Shelf that needs to roll up - for the same reasons detailed above, the first row icons still need to be at the bottom if you want them to smoothly scroll up. The only other alternative is NOT to scroll the icons at the bottom up but instead crop them (which, IMO, looks terrible).


Jorge, why does the Shelf at the top have to be inverted? Why not make a separate one that isn't inverted?

:idea: You can write into the code that automatically recognizes a top of screen docking (or let the user know that dock is meant only for top docking, and the one we're currently using now only for bottom docking). That way, users that want the Shelf docked at the top can have the icons in alphabetical order from the top to bottom instead of how it is now.

Or, if for some reason, someone likes their icons in backwards order, they can use the currently coded Shelf docked at the top and the new one (that I hope you make) docked at the bottom.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Windy wrote:
winstep wrote:
Normally when you expand a Shelf, it's the tabs that move up or down.

However, if you have the Shelf docked to the top of the screen and the Shelf is inverted (i.e.; with the tabs ALSO at the top) then the tabs obviously cannot go anywhere - they're what 'anchors' the Shelf to the screen edge.

So, in this case it's the bottom of the Shelf that needs to roll up - for the same reasons detailed above, the first row icons still need to be at the bottom if you want them to smoothly scroll up. The only other alternative is NOT to scroll the icons at the bottom up but instead crop them (which, IMO, looks terrible).


Jorge, why does the Shelf at the top have to be inverted? Why not make a separate one that isn't inverted?

:idea: You can write into the code that automatically recognizes a top of screen docking (or let the user know that dock is meant only for top docking, and the one we're currently using now only for bottom docking). That way, users that want the Shelf docked at the top can have the icons in alphabetical order from the top to bottom instead of how it is now.

Or, if for some reason, someone likes their icons in backwards order, they can use the currently coded Shelf docked at the top and the new one (that I hope you make) docked at the bottom.

I'm afraid to say, as the famous Mr. Spock might have said, your logic is flawed, Windy. ;)

Besides, what you seem to want can be done quite simply by undocking the shelf from the top edge and then moving it to the position you want. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:15 am 
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My Shelf is docked at the top. I don't want it at the bottom. I guess either you didn't see it, or forgot.

Currently, it's the next to the last post in the thread. See my setup here. I posted it 5 days ago, Sep 2, 2018. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10791


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Windy wrote:
My Shelf is docked at the top. I don't want it at the bottom. I guess either you didn't see it, or forgot.

Currently, it's the next to the last post in the thread. See my setup here. I posted it 5 days ago, Sep 2, 2018. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10791

Yes, I know where you have it. And I gave you a very simple solution -
nexter wrote:
.... Besides, what you seem to want can be done quite simply by undocking the shelf from the top edge and then moving it to the position you want. :)

You simply undock it and then move anywhere you want it along the top edge. Then you have your tabs at the top and the icons and icon rows just as they would be in a bottom shelf. Exactly as you described how you wanted it.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:25 am 
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I must be doing something wrong, it doesn't work. Under Shelf Properties and the Position tab, I unchecked Dock to screen edge...it moved to the bottom and I went back into the settings and changed it to the top, but it moved a little to the left, and I couldn't drag the Shelf.

The icons did not change order. I put the Shelf back to how it was.

Please provide step by step how to accomplish what you said. I hope I've been clear on what I'm trying to accomplish.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Windy wrote:
I must be doing something wrong, it doesn't work. Under Shelf Properties and the Position tab, I unchecked Dock to screen edge...it moved to the bottom and I went back into the settings and changed it to the top, but it moved a little to the left, and I couldn't drag the Shelf.

The icons did not change order. I put the Shelf back to how it was.

Please provide step by step how to accomplish what you said. I hope I've been clear on what I'm trying to accomplish.

OK, let's try this. :) I have a perfectly ordinary shelf docked at the top screen edge. In 'Dock Properties', 'Behaviour' tab, the "Prevent shelf from being moved by dragging with the mouse pointer" option is unselected.

Now, right-click the 'Prefs' icon in the mini-tab for the context menu. There, select 'Screen Position' -> 'Undock'. If your shelf is full-screen width, it will stay exactly where it is, but with the tabs now at the top and the icons and icon rows behaving exactly as in a bottom dock, just as you want it; in the case of a shelf that is not full-screen width, it will jump to the top left corner of the screen but I have no problem dragging it back to the centre of the top edge. The shelf, in either case, is now a free-floating one, but other settings are not affected by this.

Of course, the downside is, when you collapse the shelf, it will do so exactly as if it were docked to the bottom edge. That is, the tabs will collapse downwards over the icons and not stay at the top screen edge.

I'd call that a pretty good compromise. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:09 pm 
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You should give your customers a choice. It seems more and more companies try to tell their customers how to use their product.
Just add a checkmark to chose which way to have it.
I prefer

Row 1
Row 2

because 1 comes before 2 and I have my tabs on top.
I had to uninstall and reinstall older version because just installing older version kept the newer version without uninstalling it.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:30 pm 
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scottvf wrote:
You should give your customers a choice. It seems more and more companies try to tell their customers how to use their product.
Just add a checkmark to chose which way to have it.
I prefer

Row 1
Row 2

because 1 comes before 2 and I have my tabs on top.
I had to uninstall and reinstall older version because just installing older version kept the newer version without uninstalling it.

OMG! There are already a shedload of choices for the user in Winstep as it is, in some ways and some cases, too many IMO. Too much choice is never a good thing, it's bad for the individual as it overloads his brain, bad for society as a whole, and bad for the environment.

In the case of Winstep apps, you can often see posts here where people are utterly bewildered and confused by all the different choices and they end up not knowing what they should be doing to achieve whatever they are trying to achieve. Talking about "You [Winstep] should give your customers a choice" is more than a little unfair when Jorge (who *IS* Mr. Winstep) generally bends over backwards to give people choices. And incidentally, it is any company's privilege to tell their customers how to use their product. There are always things that are meant to and have to work in a particular way.

BTW, I am in no way connected to or affiliated with Winstep. I'm just a long-term user who has been with the programme right from the beginning.

And that particular choice you are talking about would be a completely illogical and unnatural one - it would be just plain wrong. And it would most probably confuse the hell out of many users.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:37 pm 
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scottvf wrote:
You should give your customers a choice. It seems more and more companies try to tell their customers how to use their product.


Scott, that is REALLY unfair. Winstep applications are one of the most customizable applications in the world and I do listen to user requests, provided I find them reasonable.

scottvf wrote:
Just add a checkmark to chose which way to have it.


See? For you it seems so simple. But I'm the one who knows how many different branches of code there are already because of the ability to have inverted tabs, etc...

I really don't feel like adding another 8 branches of code, with all the complexity that implies in other parts of the code due to new icon locations, scrolling options, etc, simply because some people refuse to adapt to the new way things LOOK.

It's not even a LOSS OF FUNCTION issue we are talking about here - THAT I would understand - as you STILL see and access ALL the icon rows, just like before. The *only* difference is that the row order is reversed - that is something you can quickly get used to, all you have to do is WANT to.

So, we are talking about a personal VISUAL PREFERENCE, which ONLY exists because that is the way it was BEFORE, so you got used to it. Had you started using Winstep Xtreme at v18.8, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

What you should understand is that the old way was WRONG, the new way is CORRECT, and I took advantage of all the changes I had to make to implement multiple shelves, vertical shelves, etc, to finally fix this issue.

For tabs at the top of a Shelf docked to the top screen edge (i.e.; inverted) I am still willing to discuss it, but changing this would mean icons would get *cropped* as the bottom of the Shelf slided up, instead of sliding up with the Shelf. The former looks and is WRONG too.

scottvf wrote:
I had to uninstall and reinstall older version because just installing older version kept the newer version without uninstalling it.


Wow. Well, hope you made a backup of your settings before uninstalling so you could re-apply them later. Installers do not overwrite newer files with older files - that is by design and common to all installer applications.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:49 pm 
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nexter wrote:
...it will stay exactly where it is, but with the tabs now at the top and the icons and icon rows behaving exactly as in a bottom dock, just as you want it; in the case of a shelf that is not full-screen width, it will jump to the top left corner of the screen but I have no problem dragging it back to the centre of the top edge. The shelf, in either case, is now a free-floating one, but other settings are not affected by this.

Of course, the downside is, when you collapse the shelf, it will do so exactly as if it were docked to the bottom edge. That is, the tabs will collapse downwards over the icons and not stay at the top screen edge.

I'd call that a pretty good compromise. :)


Not for me! Unfortunately. it's worse that way than how it is before trying those settings. For a second, I thought I had a compromise, but when the icons were in alphabetical order from top to bottom, the Shelf will not dock to the top of the screen because the Shelf collapses up instated of down. :x

winstep wrote:
scottvf wrote:
Just add a checkmark to chose which way to have it.


See? For you it seems so simple. But I'm the one who knows how many different branches of code there are already because of the ability to have inverted tabs, etc...

I really don't feel like adding another 8 branches of code, with all the complexity that implies in other parts of the code due to new icon locations, scrolling options, etc, simply because some people refuse to adapt to the new way things LOOK.

It's not even a LOSS OF FUNCTION issue we are talking about here - THAT I would understand - as you STILL see and access ALL the icon rows, just like before. The *only* difference is that the row order is reversed - that is something you can quickly get used to, all you have to do is WANT to.

So, we are talking about a personal VISUAL PREFERENCE, which ONLY exists because that is the way it was BEFORE, so you got used to it. Had you started using Winstep Xtreme at v18.8, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


I can't speak for anyone else, but if I just started using it for the first time the new way, I immediately would be posting in the forum to find out how to change it. The reason why so many people have an issue with it is because it not looks unnatural, but physically feels unnatural (when scrolling using the mouse) too.

winstep wrote:
What you should understand is that the old way was WRONG, the new way is CORRECT, and I took advantage of all the changes I had to make to implement multiple shelves, vertical shelves, etc, to finally fix this issue.

For tabs at the top of a Shelf docked to the top screen edge (i.e.; inverted) I am still willing to discuss it, but changing this would mean icons would get *cropped* as the bottom of the Shelf slided up, instead of sliding up with the Shelf. The former looks and is WRONG too.


This is the first and only program that I've seen that does not have a Ascending/Descending option. Jorge, obviously it seems trivial to you, but to many of us it's very annoying, and not because we got used to it the other way.

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, I and just about all of us here appreciate all of the work you put into your programs, and the support you provide. This is just "THE" one (and probably the only one) that users won't get used to.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:17 am 
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Windy wrote:
winstep wrote:
scottvf wrote:
Just add a checkmark to chose which way to have it.

See? For you it seems so simple. But I'm the one who knows how many different branches of code there are already because of the ability to have inverted tabs, etc...

I really don't feel like adding another 8 branches of code, with all the complexity that implies in other parts of the code due to new icon locations, scrolling options, etc, simply because some people refuse to adapt to the new way things LOOK.

It's not even a LOSS OF FUNCTION issue we are talking about here - THAT I would understand - as you STILL see and access ALL the icon rows, just like before. The *only* difference is that the row order is reversed - that is something you can quickly get used to, all you have to do is WANT to.

So, we are talking about a personal VISUAL PREFERENCE, which ONLY exists because that is the way it was BEFORE, so you got used to it. Had you started using Winstep Xtreme at v18.8, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I just started using it for the first time the new way, I immediately would be posting in the forum to find out how to change it. The reason why so many people have an issue with it is because it not looks unnatural, but physically feels unnatural (when scrolling using the mouse) too.

Only because you are biased because you had become used to the old but utterly *wrong*, *illogical* and *unnatural* way.

And where exactly do "so many people have an issue with it" - provide evidence. So far, I've only seen yourself and the above other user moan about it. The new way is the only right way, and it looks and feels right, natural and intuitive in every way. The fact that you are resistant to change and don't like it does not change that in any way. Accept it and get used to it. As Jorge rightly said, you just have to *WANT* to. A closed mind has never achieved anything yet.
Windy wrote:
winstep wrote:
What you should understand is that the old way was WRONG, the new way is CORRECT, and I took advantage of all the changes I had to make to implement multiple shelves, vertical shelves, etc, to finally fix this issue.

For tabs at the top of a Shelf docked to the top screen edge (i.e.; inverted) I am still willing to discuss it, but changing this would mean icons would get *cropped* as the bottom of the Shelf slided up, instead of sliding up with the Shelf. The former looks and is WRONG too.

This is the first and only program that I've seen that does not have a Ascending/Descending option. Jorge, obviously it seems trivial to you, but to many of us it's very annoying, and not because we got used to it the other way.

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, I and just about all of us here appreciate all of the work you put into your programs, and the support you provide. This is just "THE" one (and probably the only one) that users won't get used to.

Wait a minute! "to many of us it's very annoying...." - since then are two people 'many'? Again, you provide no evidence to support your claims.

There is no other programme out there that is anything like Workshelf shelves (not on Windows anyway), so when you say "This is the first and only program that I've seen that does not have a Ascending/Descending option," you are not comparing like with like - you may be comparing apples with oranges, but the only thing those two share is that both are fruit! There are programmes or parts thereof where an ascending/descending option is a valid one, no doubt. A shelf however is definitely not one of them.

All I can suggest in the face of such bellicose and even belligerent complaining is, go and cry in a pillow and rip up a tissue or crush a grape. Sorry. (Jorge must have the patience of a saint, as they say.... Mine is much more limited.)

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