:Moderator's note - Total views of this topic should be +1,001 as these were accidentally lost in copying a post here to another thread where parts of it belonged - nexter:


A Theme Builder - "The Thing that must not be named" - is something Winstep needs for a long while now. One user suggested he'd be willing to pay $25 for it as a separate add-on and was wondering if a survey could be held.

Well, you asked for it, @Nezbit! So here it is.

I thought few users could be arsed to take part - prove me wrong!

A whole week gone by, some 100-odd views, and just two lousy votes - how lame can things get! Yep, looks like I was right - hardly anybody can be arsed.... True to form. Everybody clamouring for something but then can't be arsed. Ah well.

Ok, I understand your bitterness when voting, but if I take my personal case, I don't need a theme builder because I know theme configuration files quite well. On the other hand I am willing to pay a supplement if it can help people to build new themes and relaunch the process and the attraction to make themes.
On the other hand, I am under windows 11, and in the current state I no longer produce a winstep theme for about 3 months because it is no longer possible to offer themes that have taskbar problems and some slowdowns in the application. I did not renew my license and there is no question that I return to Windows 10 for everything to work again. To be honest, I dropped the case. I will surely come back when "Jorge" will show up on the progress of the problem and perhaps his resolution of the new code that Microsoft has implemented on the latest Windows 11 versions causing all these disfunctions...
I know that talking about this problem annoys you and I'm sorry, using "AutoIt" to partially alleviate the problem does not satisfy me and for me currently winstep is no longer compatible with windows 11. Given the content of my remarks, I don't know if you're going to delete it, give me a warning or ban me, I assume. I don't think I was incorrect, I just expressed my personal feeling.
With all due respect to you and "Jorge"...
Cordially...
Picco14.

I would have to agree with Picco14. I would be 100% for a separate add-on and would gladly pay for it, but I just recently went back to Windows 10 from Windows 11, and a great part of the reason was the problems with Winstep Xtreme and Windows 11.

I originally suggested this survey and hoped that people would get excited about themes again. Windows 10 and even Windows 11 can get boring. Winstep Xtreme made both easier to use and fun. I hope Jorge can find a solution to the Windows 11 problems. I would hate to see Winstep Xtreme disappear.

Thank you Picco14 (and all the others) for all the themes. I especially liked the "Wednesday" theme that we could only look at.

Hey Picco, long time no see!

The voting, or lack of it, doesn't make me bitter or anything at all - it merely confirms my 'prediction'. People on this board just aren't arsed about anything really as long as they keep running or whatever. However, what does piss me off though is that time and again people come here clamouring for some kind of theme builder or a theming manual of some sort, and wanting to create themes or adapt an existing theme, but they cannot be arsed to engage in a serious discussion on the topic of a theme builder and furthermore cannot be arsed to vote about one.

(It also pisses me off no end that first people in the UK vote to leave the EU, and then since it actually happened they want to bitch and moan that we left! Hell, I'm glad we're out, no regrets here. But let's not get into politics. )

Anyway, the point is, most people who might be interested in creating themes would either not be inclined to mess with configuration files, or perhaps as often, would find it too difficult. So a theme builder of some sort would be very important for probably the majority of people who would actually like to create themes. Granted, in the absence of one, perhaps users like us could compile some kind of guide explaining the different settings and their options in each of the config files and post it in this forum, but it would still leave a big potential for inexperienced users to come to grief.

But, here's the rub. Theming/skinning is so out of vogue nowadays that I think that in any case we are probably talking about a pretty small minority of users who would actually create new themes - and especially new themes of any sort of quality - even if a new theme builder were available. And on the other hand, I can completely understand Jorge especially in view of this that the idea of working on a new theme builder is very, very boring to him and that it is very boring work indeed for a gifted coder like him.

Personally, I really don't see why anyone would see a need to use Windows 11 and I certainly never shall. (As I mentioned in these forums a number of times, my main OS has been Linux for some time now anyway, and I use Windows very little and rarely now thank goodness.) But of course, I realise and understand that a fair number of people would be using Win 11 for whatever reason and don't want to go back to Win 10, and I also appreciate that the issues created by Win 11 for users of Xtreme or Nexus must be extremely frustrating, effectively rendering the Winstep system tray in particular and the NextSTART taskbar unusable until a fix can be produced. And that is the crux of the matter - *can* a fix really be produced?

Yes, a couple of other utilities have found ways around the system tray issue, but - and this is a *very big* but - they were coded in different languages than Winstep apps. The problem is that Winstep apps are written in Visual Basic, and Microsoft have been doing their damnest to make life more and more difficult for programming Win32 apps using VB, as part of an effort to force developers to go over to .NET or UWP! I'm sure Jorge is looking very hard into finding a way to fix these issues, but it obviously is taking a very long time and in the end may yet prove impossible. But if anyone can fix it, Jorge's the one.

So I do fully understand your points and cannot really argue against them.

I really don't know why you would think that talking about the Win 11 issue would annoy me Picco. It doesn't. Nothing really does here. I always welcome reasoned, intelligent discussion of just about anything. Where I draw the line, as I had to in some instances in respect of the discussions about the Win 11 issue, is when people turn things into an argument, argue with me as a moderator (not tolerated on any board that I know), and/or become belligerent, abusive (in tone if not language), and start making ridiculous demands that they have absolutely no entitlement to make. It is my duty as a moderator to keep order and keep things civil, and when a discussion no longer is a reasonable, reasoned discussion or indeed any kind of discussion at all then it is time to draw a line and end it by whatever means I deem appropriate. This I did, and did so with some restraint compared to moderators on some boards.

So no, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions and to express the same Picco, just like anybody else, and I most definitely would not redact any such reasoned, perfectly reasonable post or delete it, nor would I issue a warning or ban in such circumstances. I certainly don't see that you have violated any of the Board Rules and Guidelines.

Alas, Nezbit, the chances of anyone on this board getting excited about anything and especially theme creation would appear to be very slim.

I too live in hope that Jorge will come up with a solution to the vexed Win 11 issue and also would absolutely hate for Xtreme to fade away. So let's just hope for the best, eh?

And still a mere 3 votes! Half-way through week two. It really doesn't look promising.

Well I've just voted for it, and am happy to pay extra.

The reason that I didn't vote earlier is that I'm doing other things so not checking on this board as often as I used to.

When I first started using Winstep I did struggle to find information on theme building despite extensive searching (although I did manage to find, install and get working the original incarnation of the theme builder!). However my purpose was not to create fancy presentations - I think you have to have a leaning towards graphics / graphics design for that - but to create a minimalist Nextstart and workshelf theme that reduced real estate use whilst still having display features that worked for me (highlights, menu bars, drop down lists, etc) and that still looked good.

At the end of the day I want my desktop to work for me, not the other way around.

I still only have a basic understanding / appreciation of the theme configuration file structure, but managed to get something that 'sort of worked' for me, so I stopped there and moved on to other things I wanted to do. There are still a few niggles that I don't understand, but they aren't stopping me working so I just ignore them.

I think if there was more info available on how each of the config files works, or a more functional theme builder application, then I might revisit this area.

I'm still a very happy user of the Winstep products although these are in use on Windows 10, which I won't be moving off in a hurry.

I've used many OSes over the years, and still use Linux regularly, but much prefer Windows 10 for a desktop experience (well actually Windows 7 or XP - I use StartisBack++ on all my machines to get the 'better' Start menu).

One certainly should want one's desktop to work for one and not the other way around, I couldn't agree more.

Glad some people are still reluctant to switch to Win 11 - personally, I think it should be boycotted completely until MS realise the error of their ways. I'll never adopt it, and I also shall never allow a TPM to be active. (The road to hell.... )

I also have to agree that that Win versions prior to 8 were a much better user experience, and personally I also still think XP was the better of the lot, at least in many respects. However, I don't really see how Win 10 (or any prior versions) provide a better desktop experience than Linux. The one problem I have with Linux desktops is that - regardless of distro and WM/DE - the vast majority are so damn Windows-like instead of moving forward to something much more advanced. Glad you're still using Linux regularly. It's my principal OS here, mainly Ubuntu, but also Fedora, although lately I'm getting a bit concerned about Ubuntu/Canonical becoming such close bed-fellows with MS - and who wants/needs bloody Windblows PowerShell on Ubuntu anyway when we've got BASH! I use Linux for about 85-90% of my computing, and even when I do use Windows 10 for the less than handful apps I need there, I always have one or two Linux VMs running to do everything else. On the whole, I find the default DEs of Ubuntu and Fedora to be a better experience than Windows. But then, one man's poison and all that.... The biggest problems with Linux really are, as Linus Torvalds and Mark Shuttleworth respectively were pained to point out a few years back, that there are far too many distros and far too many DEs, alas. Too much choice has never been a healthy thing, it's what is fuelling our mad consumerist, throw-away society.

Anyway, yes, theme building in Winstep has become something of a nightmare for most users in the absence of a theme builder or at least a proper manual, or preferably both. Sadly, I must admit I think the chances of either happening are probably fairly slim. And the very restrained - to put it no stronger than that - response to this poll I guess provides zero incentive to produce either. (Wow! We're up to 5 votes! )

Good to see you around again, techlobo.

A full two weeks gone by with a total of 5 votes only, and only another fortnight to go till the poll ends. I guess we'll be very, very lucky if the total number of votes goes to 10 by then.

I have been waiting many years for a theme builder and came to the realization that it is not going to happen. If people have given up waiting they are not going to be very motivated to vote on a survey. To what end?

Sorry, it's just how I feel.

Completely understand how you feel, gillon. It is frustrating that there hasn't been one since, what, about 2009, IIRC!? What my thinking was, somewhat vaguely and somewhat vainly perhaps, that having the poll just might, just might, stir up a bit of interest and perhaps also for people who'd like to create themes to vent their frustrations. Ultimately, I'd hoped, this might give Jorge some food for thought at the least. Let's face it, new themes are very important for any apps like the Winstep ones, they are, at least in theory, their very lifeblood. The current default themes are not only old but actually look very dated and its time these were replaced with something more reflective of the times - i.e., a clean, minimalist look. What we lack generally are modern, professional-looking themes, designed by people with backgrounds in graphic design generally and preferably also user interface design specifically.

But, what we also lack is a proper Winstep themes repository, which actually exists but is not officially open to the public. It's been there for 3 or 4 years now IIRC, perfectly workable though perhaps not the prettiest. In the absence of that also, where would the incentive be for theme creators? The WinCustomize site is the only half-viable repository at the moment, but without using the link on the Winstep site, you'd never find it!

So, all in all, a shitty, catch 22 situation. All of that, in the light of the virtual demise of the whole skinning scene and the demise of general interest, does not bode well for the future, methinks.

Well, here we are into the fourth and final week of this poll, and we've actually reached 8 votes! Only one of them against - I'm amazed. [/sarcasm]

Only a smidgeon over 2 more days to go! Last chance to add your vote and/or comment!

Poll's closed and stayed at a lousy 8 votes, with 6 affirmative, 1 willing to spend an extra $25, and 1 negative.

If we speculate for a moment that in the space of one month, a majority of active members of this board would have logged in at least once, this leads one to tentatively conclude that -
1) the number of active members of this board is in all probability quite small, and
2) that basically, most couldn't really give a toss.

Now, I just hope this also means we'll never ever hear mention of "The Thing that must not be named" nor even of some kind of theming manual!

In conclusion, one can only say, it is what it is.