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 Post subject: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:34 am 
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First off I'm going to start this off by stating that I'm one of those weird REAL try before you buy "Moral" piraters (yes they do exist lol, and I actually go by a high set of moral rules I put on myself such as not re-redistributing files from a grassroots type company, donating if I think about keeping a product at minimum the cost of single license or dropping the program, highly support small artists/programmers both verbally and financially, etc). I'm actually surprised to see such a well run demo option for your products so I should have checked like I usually do at first, sorry about that :oops: Just really sick of trying all sorts of alternative shell options that either are A. Terrible products/crash the system or B. Good products with zero community/developer support (not to mention didn't know this one wasn't litestep as I mention below so I almost missed testing it).

Anyways, only reason I went into that long intro was to state that I have NEVER seen this kind of support this product gets from its admin/staff, and due to this and from what I've seen that this is one of the better alternatives out there, will definitely be getting the single license (not the lite one either) shortly.

The pre-sales questions I have I came into this forum to ask before I decided to commit, but are more a formality now so I can have a little more familiarity of what I will be getting into (In fact you'll probably see the order before you would have had the chance to answer lol).

A. The "Xtreme" Winstep from what I gather is the full product correct? I mean with the dock/start menu, etc.? Just wanted to see if there was add-on or other value added packages I might want to get later on with this.

B. I see this is currently an "x86" version. Is their plans to do a true 64-bit version, and as far as compatibility with a 64-bit system has this caused any issues with the product? (Still REALLY burnt from Stardock's failed attempts to make a consistent working 64-bit product, and besides had a bad taste in my mouth since windowblinds 4 days so wouldn't want to pay them a cent anyways lol)

C. The only other product i really liked that I tried was Talisman which I didn't see enough of to draw an opinion off, and Litestep which I didn't even get to the point where I know its not product as here yet (As I said, real support and communications I saw between the admin and members made my decision before I was totally finished testing :) ). What I WANTED to ask was where the products differed and what strength you feel Winstep has over the competitor products, and what Winstep might lack from that these other products may have. Still be nice to know regardless that its a moot point :wink:

D. Any Cross product compatibility such as desktopx gadgets, etc. that I can make work with Xtreme with little or no alterations?

E. I might want to go back and get the 5-license version later on (after I get a chance to set mine up and see if my wife wanted that kind of setup to do the same for her computer). Would I have to rebuy the full network package, or is there a way to put the cost from the single license this time around as a portion of the network version later on?

Thanks again, you really got a supporter out of me, wish all smaller scale companies showed this kind of commitment/support to their customers, might be enough to level the playing field and out of big fat cat control :) Off to get it now and so I can show a few of the same friends I mentioned in the beginning what the product value REALLY is, I always have the TRUE spirit of it (p2p networking) in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:42 am 
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Well that process added a last question lol, is this a license code I get in the email to use on a downloaded version, or a delivered product, got confused at the confirmation :oops: Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:31 pm 
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A. Yes, Winstep Xtreme is the full version.

B. The x64 compatibility is just fine at the moment and IIRC the author said that due to the small footprint of Winstep there is currently next to no point into adding x64 compatibility as long as x64 can emulate x86.

C. I'll leave this to Jorge, the author.

D. There was some stacks program that worked reasonably well with Winstep IIRC, might have to search the forums for that.

E. Again this is something that Jorge deals with, not me.

F. You get a license file (unless you're getting the German version..) and you can use that on the trial version of Winstep Xtreme, simply by double-clicking it. It should automagically enter the license into Winstep.


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:28 pm 
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To answer your questions first (those who haven't been answered already by Kutagh):

C. Both Talisman and Litestep are shell replacements. I can't speak for Talisman, which is a commercial product, but Litestep development is essentially non-existent at this point (judging by the lack of activity on their LSDEV logs here).

Shell replacements had their reason of being when Windows was ugly, RAM was scarce and Explorer was both buggy and a memory hog. Those were the main reasons why people put up with the little (and not so little) idiosyncrasies of running alternate shells.

Fortunately, none of these conditions are true anymore, so interest in alternate shells (their usual complexity in setting up is also partially to blame) has decreased dramatically.

Not only that, Litestep is an Open Source project, which depends on the good will of its developers to remain active. As it happens with nearly all free stuff not backed up by a commercial side, their developers eventually lose interest or move on to more lucrative stuff (such as getting a full time job).

We all have to feed ourselves and our families, after all, even those who cry out that everything should be free (as long as it doesn't come out of THEIR pocket or from THEIR effort, of course).

Winstep, on the other hand, as always positioned itself as a maker of 'shell enhancements', not 'shell replacements'. Add-on utilities, in other words, which add to what is already there instead of trying to replace it with things that are better in some areas but much worse in others. The user thus doesn't have to lose something to gain something else: Winstep is a win-win, best of both worlds, proposition.

Furthermore, even though Winstep applications are extremelly powerful and flexible (with the added complexity that such a thing entails), a huge effort was put into designing them with the 'newbie' user in mind, to ease the learning curve, while at the same time adding a ton of new functionality.

I would go as far as saying that, for all that it does, Winstep Xtreme is currently one of the easiest shell enhancement utilities to use and configure.

E. When the time comes, you can send a message to Winstep support to pay the difference. :D

###

Now, regarding your introduction (ouch, lol):

While I understand you and empathize with your stance, there is no such thing as a 'moral pirate'. Whether we personally agree with something or not, the law is the law, and, even though it's not perfect, it's there to avoid something much worse: society descending into absolute chaos.

And total chaos is what would happen if everybody interpreted the law to their own definition of what is right or wrong, what is acceptable and what isn't. By chosing to be part of society (and benefiting from it), we also have to abide by its rules.

When we don't (and we know perfectly well when we aren't) we have a tendency to make up excuses for ourselves that justify our lack of compliance. Whichever way you put it, however, those are still nothing but excuses - or the equivalent, in a court of law, of what would be called 'mitigating circumnstances'. You are still breaking the law.

Of course, rules and laws are not imutable (nor should they be, as society itself changes and envolves), but there are legal mechanisms to change them when necessary.

The law clearly states that pirating software, or music, or books, or whatever, is illegal. There is a reason for that, since it was the creation and enforcement of copyright laws that made possible the absolutely incredible 'boom' in technological and intelectual development we had in the last two centuries, and that we enjoy today.

In a perfect world, one where resources were not finite, everybody would work for the benefit of others (and thus, indirectly, themselves). Alas, this is not a perfect world and neither does current human nature allow that. Unless we have something to benefit personally, humans still live by the natural law of the 'least effort'.

You (and many others) justify piracy with 'really sick of trying all sorts of alternative shell options/games/applications/<insert your favorite thing here>' that, in the end, 'are not exactly what you expected them to be'.

As with everything in life, there is a certain level of uncertainty in ALL we do. It's just a part of life - but why do we accept this in so many things but not when it comes to IP?

When you buy a new car, you can go for a test drive. You buy it and then, after a month of driving it, decide that the car isn't perfect. Would you return it? You would if you could - but you can't, and that is an accepted fact of life. And we are not talking about $40 here. :-P

Let's go overboard with another example, just for the fun of it: ;-)

You date a girl for a couple of years, then decide to marry her. What do you do if she then turns up to be a nagging monster (a facet of her personality she successfuly hid from you while you were dating)? Return her to her parents? Sue her for mis-representation? :-) Of course not, but even though you can always divorce her, nothing will bring back the emotional investement you made while you were dating (or the precious time you lost with the wrong person). All we can do is chalk it up to experience.

Same when I buy a book. I buy it hoping the book is good, but, if it turns out not to be, I don't go to the shop I bought it from demanding my money back. I just shelve the book somewhere and never read it again (or buy anything else from that author).

However, stealing the book and then buying it if it is good, or returning it to the shop if it isn't, is NOT acceptable behavior. It's still stealing - you'll be laughed out of court if you justify your actions with that excuse.

So, to recap, you might be better than some pirates, but you are still a pirate. You are still breaking the law; rationalizing to yourself what you know deep down to be unacceptable behavior. Understand that and you will have grown as a person.

But then, don't we all do this at one point or another? ;-)

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Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:55 am 
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Mainly wanted to respond to a well-rounded argument from someone who does obviously have to deal with piracy and what it does to your business. All in all, I mostly agree with a lot of your points, and regardless of my stance your opinions are based on facts and limits that you agree to live by for social civilization to be what it is today, so debating that a statement is "wrong" would be incorrect by me since I disagree with living by those same standards (kind of like debating religion, both points are right based on why the views are there in the first place).

My standards are based on my feeling that tribal community and economics of trade and social necessity dictating employment rather then capital gain was a standard of life too quickly abandoned by greedy colonialists that looked at neighboring lands and "gold mines" for them to rape and exploit for their ideal world based on class and elitism. I feel this has resulted in a world of broken home/family units, left many children confused on their place in a society of consumer robots with zero guidance on what it is to be a human and part of the natural world spiritually and religiously (not structured religion by ANY means, living religiously faithful to yourself and in harmony with the world). Very few questioned on the meaning of life and their place in the world without a very tangible way to spiritually explore this within themselves back when they had a family/history they could share in that actually meant something, not just a fake/sterile replacement that they get nowadays with a ancestry.com online family tree (no offense to anyone who uses this, a lot of people don't have any other option now).

So my standard feelings on what is right or wrong is different enough to state I am a moral pirate based on the moral code I follow (while at no point would I encourage anyone to have the same belief system as it is quite anti-social by current world beliefs, and as you have stated, very chaotic and at a lot of levels not legal behavior, don't try this at home kiddies!).

A couple points I will respond to based on that mindset
winstep wrote:
Whether we personally agree with something or not, the law is the law

Disagree simply because the reason its a law is because its accepted by most by either agreement or fear of consequence. Only ways laws have been successfully been removed/changed is by defiance in one way or another. Two excellent examples would be Prohibition, and the Tea tax that resulted in the Boston Tea Party (which obviously led to war, definitely fits social chaos being a result, but to those who still believe in what America stands for, wouldn't have a country without it, which ironically I don't fit in that category either but the example still fits the argument)


winstep wrote:
By chosing to be part of society (and benefiting from it), we also have to abide by its rules.

Unfortunately there's no real alternative to choose to be a part of, so I have to abide by the rules simply because I don't want to die or rot in jail? Yes unfortunately but doesn't mean I will where I can avoid it. (btw this doesn't make me a rampant anarchist by any means, I believe in natural humanity and common good to those around you. While I may totally support bringing down certain agencies/groups/businesses by any means necessary short of harming other lives, I feel no one should have to be a casualty for the mess that we created in the first place, and while I know I can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs, I'd gladly leave them be if I know that it would come at the cost of yet another child growing up without a parent. And yea, I know I'm a few cards short of a full deck, product of the society I was forced to be a part of :wink:)

winstep wrote:
When we don't (and we know perfectly well when we aren't) we have a tendency to make up excuses for ourselves that justify our lack of compliance. Whichever way you put it, however, those are still nothing but excuses

Eh, not making excuses. Pirating is breaking the law, and my justifications are exactly that, justifications (in my opinion). Kind of like a non violent protest, I choose to defy when I feel I want to based on my moral code as I stated above. I also lead by example and not fit the definition of a hypocrite in any way by educating those I share my life with (and/or files lol) and make SURE I always give credit to real people that put their heart and soul into their work.
To be honest? I hate money and the capital greed that goes with it, I'd rather be without it, but I'm not an idiot and realize that for now society has deemed it the only valuable thing to life (can't even get the things needed to stay alive like food and water without it lol). Therefore, I will also financially support anything that comes from those same passionate people that contribute their lives through their arts (music, software, and obviously labor such as farmers that slave to get garbage scraps from their corporate grocery store sales that they then make anywhere from 5-10x what they gave to the farmer for). On that note, I read a good point you made while I was browsing yesterday (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1050). I forgot about this and knowing what crap the dollar is at, obviously you are ripped off again by the same system that I am forced to support with since no other alternative economic option is reasonable or fair. Should my wife decide to go with the program (and I hope she does), I won't accept a discount on a multi license that you get enough taken from, call me a weirdo but I will definitely get it at full price at that point.[/quote]

winstep wrote:
Of course, rules and laws are not imutable (nor should they be, as society itself changes and envolves), but there are legal mechanisms to change them when necessary.

Sorry But I'll disagree with this, on there is no way to change laws short of disobedience unless the ruling party government also wishes the rules to change. Waaay to many examples throughout history to bring up so I'll stick with a current, relevant one on what our wonderful US government feels about due process and law http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/articles/90032944

winstep wrote:
The law clearly states that pirating software, or music, or books, or whatever, is illegal. There is a reason for that, since it was the creation and enforcement of copyright laws that made possible the absolutely incredible 'boom' in technological and intelectual development we had in the last two centuries, and that we enjoy today.

Top part I agree, and copyright laws were 'originally' very important to help a creator of the arts make a viable business from their labor of love (not so much now when the focus moved from 'creator' to 'IP holder'). However, I feel the technologies of today are by FAR trumped by the works and developments in science during the renaissance, with the exception of the internet (which by the way would never have been possible if it tried to start without the open sharing environment it was created from)

winstep wrote:
In a perfect world, one where resources were not finite, everybody would work for the benefit of others (and thus, indirectly, themselves). Alas, this is not a perfect world and neither does current human nature allow that. Unless we have something to benefit personally, humans still live by the natural law of the 'least effort'.

TOTALLY disagree with this since this was the cause of the capital/colonial bastards. The resources are not finite if used the way they evolved to be part of the world with. I just spent 20 minutes trying to find this excellent example, but I'll keep looking later if you want the source on that one. It was basically a small ecosystem of a river/forest line and I believe swamplands that was severely damaged by the loss of its main predator which was either a for, wolf, or coyote (you can see why I can't find the source lol). It ended up losing the river and forest lines and became like grasslands. Within ONE year of the predator being reintroduces to the area, the river started returning (badgers were a main part of the system if you were disbelieving/puzzled on the eco impact).
As far as least effort? Only recently in the consumer world we now live in did humans become lazy and no longer self sufficient, sad state to see the top of the food chain be reduced to this mess of a species we have now. Maybe one day things will finally get hard enough for humans to actually have to put some effort in survival for them to get the natural warrior/hunter spirit back, and yes I'd MUCH rather go to those days then live in these, again not a full deck here :mrgreen:

winstep wrote:
As with everything in life, there is a certain level of uncertainty in ALL we do. It's just a part of life - but why do we accept this in so many things but not when it comes to IP?
..... It's still stealing - you'll be laughed out of court if you justify your actions with that excuse.

Not gonna deny one part of that section, except to state that this is the best I can do to oppose the current tragic way people view life and worse try to instill these values into the future. "IF" I accepted it into my life for things that for all practical purposes, in reality we don't need, I would see IP the same. I actually support IP much better then most, with putting my effort to make sure the person/people that DESERVE their effort to be compensated, I will do 100%. To clarify, People always deserve to get paid (by whatever economic system that sustains us) for their efforts. Corporations usually don't. Marketing and advertising firms (throw record label and distributors in this mix) definitely don't. The visionary people that bring their art into a possibility, and all the labor from those who diligently work on these labors, absolutely should be rewarded, not the jerks that convince them to position their idea a certain way to get the dumb moron who's on the couch watching tv the 2nd 40 hrs of their week to buy the product and because of this find a way to keep the product as if its theirs?? Call me crazy but the day the copyright laws ONLY protect the original CREATOR, not the IP holder if its a separate entity, will I then respect the copyright law.
And yes its stealing, and the only excuse I would use in court is the same laws and loopholes they use to trap as the laws and loopholes to squirrel out of it. Due justice imo and trust me if it was a lawyer or corporation that brought the charges, I'm right back directly on them with a quickness :lol: I would, however, speak and mitigate with an copyright holder that had a real reason they should have the copyright ie. developer, artist, etc.

winstep wrote:
So, to recap, you might be better than some pirates, but you are still a pirate. You are still breaking the law; rationalizing to yourself what you know deep down to be unacceptable behavior. Understand that and you will have grown as a person.

But then, don't we all do this at one point or another? ;-)

All true, and based on my rationalization I try to keep it acceptable behavior in my opinion and as much as possible to the true people the p2p epidemic has hurt, the IP creators. I will be pissing on the grave of every big corp that goes belly up from it though, I only wish the economic system was really there to help the people that would lose jobs from it, because it hasn't been there since day 1 and not like the million+ salaried execs would be there to help their slaves that helped them get their fortune.

And on that note....my email client finally got up and I see my key has arrived...off to go break my computer somehow weeeee :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:59 am 
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Holy long response batman :oops: sorry promise to be less of a fanatic after that one lol just got home from work and got off that soap box less then an hour ago so too easy to get back on :)


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:02 am 
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To be frank with games, there is another issue.

Imagine buying a car that you can't test-drive first (or at least not that exact model). Then when you finally get your car it seems you're missing the lights, you can't shift from second to third gear and such. This is exactly what happens with games: More often than not there is no demo until a while after the release of the game and there are often enough serious flaws. Going to an extreme: The Saboteur. If you had an ATI card you simply could not play the game at all. Or with Call of Duty: Black Ops, a lot of people complaining about performance issues even though they got a pretty good PC.

Myself, I'm sick and tired of paying for games when all I'm getting in return is perhaps just a shoddy piece of crap and (almost) no support at all nor a way to return the game (once you played the game you simply can't return it anymore according to 99,5% of the return policies). Yes, I do pirate games as well but I do buy games. Pre-ordered Test Drive Unlimited 2 because TDU1 was a nice game. And there we go again, some glaring bugs but generally I've been enjoying the game and then it feels like it was money well spent. Call of Duty: Black Ops. I've spent over 64 hours on it now. Definitely a good purchase.

Then there are games that I'm glad to have downloaded and deleted afterwards, for example games where they're heavy on dialogue yet have zero subtitles for example. Tell me, how the hell should I know whether dialogue is a significant part of the game and whether it is subtitled when there is no demo? There is no way that I can just 'live with it' because I'm deaf.

Another issue: Accessibility to buy the game. Not everyone has access to PayPal or a creditcard. For example with Minecraft that is a massive issue because there are more than enough people willing to pay that €15 it is now but no way to actually buy the game. Or even worse: Angry Birds was released on Intel's app store which only uses Credit Card. A CC is very common in USA but in the EU we rarely use a creditcard (more commonly a debit card or so). Here in the Netherlands we have a system called iDeal for online payments which is basically a portal where you log in, receive a text with a code and authorize the payment that way. A lot more safe than just a creditcard number and another number on the card.


In the end: I know I'm breaking the law. But the most popular games are also the most downloaded games and from that you can see that there is demand for your game. If the ratio downloaders - buyers is extremely high (so you have a lot more downloaders than buyers) then there is something wrong. There is a core group that will download just because they can (and sometimes they won't even play it...) but I'm pretty sure that 75+% of the downloaders are willing to pay if they are guranteed a quality game.


The copyright system is nice. The patent system is actually destroying the innovation currently. There are companies that buy patents and then start demanding royalties for the usage of the patents while the company themselves does absolutely nothing with it. Currently for a newcomer without a lot of cash it is pretty hard to actually start a company with a new product, there is a patent for even the most vague things such as "A method to flick the page of a virtual book on a touchscreen". That is just an idea, not technology.


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:04 am 
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s810car wrote:
Holy long response batman :oops:


Lol! Long response indeed. Although I love a good debate, with a deadline on Monday I currently don't have time to pursue this much further. But I would still like to comment on the following, in no particular order:

s810car wrote:
Eh, not making excuses. Pirating is breaking the law, and my justifications are exactly that, justifications (in my opinion). Kind of like a non violent protest, I choose to defy when I feel I want to based on my moral code as I stated above.


You see, this is why I love what Gandhi once said: "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for."

You can defy whatever you want, but by choosing to pirate software you are hurting others (the IP owner), not yourself. In fact, you are actually benefiting from this 'defiance', thus making it self-serving. As such, it's nothing more than an argument you use to justify selfish behavior to your own self (and others).

And as for being a non-violent protest, there are many forms of violence, and you are not there to see the effect this reasoning (multiplied by all the others that share it) has on the life of the IP owner and his family.

A bit off-topic now, but the most amazing thing is that Gandhi proved that passive resistance works REALLY WELL. But did the world learn? Nah. Just look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has been going on for decades. As Gandhi once said too: "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

You gotta love what that guy stood for. :D

s810car wrote:
Disagree simply because the reason its a law is because its accepted by most by either agreement or fear of consequence.


And how are children educated to grow up with strong, moral values? By showing them that, to every action, there is a consequence (some good, some bad, depending on what the child did). So yes, fear the consequences is absolutely right, even for adults.

s810car wrote:
Two excellent examples would be Prohibition


Errr, I would say that proves my reasoning. Bad laws eventually self-correct.

s810car wrote:
The resources are not finite if used the way they evolved to be part of the world with.


They are. As a simple example, imagine we are both desperately in love with the same woman, but she likes you and not me. One of us will be without (in this case it would be me, lol).

Anyway, the world is finite, it can be measured. Therefore, so are resources.

As for what I meant by 'least effort', there is a story that illustrates this perfectly here. Unfortunately the story itself seems to be an urban legend, but the truth behind it cannot be denied.

s810car wrote:
To clarify, People always deserve to get paid (by whatever economic system that sustains us) for their efforts. Corporations usually don't.


You know why you think this way? Because you can identify with individual persons but not with corporations. Corporations have no face. However, corporations are nothing more than clusters of people/individuals. When you hurt a corporation, you are also hurting the little pieces that make it: people. So, if a single individual deserves to get paid, so do the many individuals that are part of a corporation.

Of course, the difference here is one of size: one person stealing from a corporation will usually not do the same damage as stealing from another individual. On the other hand, do enough damage to bring down an entire corporation and you are hurting MANY people, not just one.

Although many bad things can be said about corporations, so can many good things. A corporation usually has a lot more resources than a single individual, and can therefore put them to use to make a bigger difference - for the good and for the bad. Imagine if Microsoft was a single person slaving away behind his PC - do you really think Windows would be what it is today under those circumstances? :-)

s810car wrote:
I feel this has resulted in a world of broken home/family units, left many children confused on their place in a society of consumer robots with zero guidance on what it is to be a human and part of the natural world spiritually and religiously (not structured religion by ANY means, living religiously faithful to yourself and in harmony with the world).


I agree that this is indeed the sad state of the world today, but only partially with the causes you stated. Greed has always been a part of mankind since, well, ever. So, out-of-control materialism, no doubt, but that is only part of the cause.

I think a bigger problem is an exacerbated sense of entitlement, without a matching sense of responsibility. We abuse our rights. As the ancient orator Isocrates once said: “Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”

We think that, in the name of freedom, everything should be permitted, come up with excuses on why this should be so, and continuously stretch the boundaries of what is wrong and what is right. We allow ourselves to be exposed to the most atrocious acts until our hearts harden and we think nothing of it anymore.

And then this becomes our 'gift' to our children: a twisted sense of morals where respect for other points of view is confused with 'everything goes'. We forget that freedom has a very heavy price: responsibility. Unfortunately we want one without the other.

On the other hand, materialistic speaking, we never had it so good: only 40 years ago, having steak once a week was considered a luxury here in Portugal. Now you are considered poor if you don't have a cell phone or a car. Each one of us lives in more comfort that Kings did back in the middle ages.

But, ah, are we generally more happy? I have never seen so many dysfunctional people, so many lonely people, so many broken families, as we have these days. So I guess that the 'everything goes' mentality is definitely not the way to happiness. We need good, solid rules. It is what keeps us grounded.

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Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:22 am 
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kutagh wrote:
Call of Duty: Black Ops. I've spent over 64 hours on it now. Definitely a good purchase.


Can't speak about multi-player, but I thought the single-player campaign was boring (too scripted) until the last few chapters (playing it on Veteran). I loved the previous COD games though.

kutagh wrote:
Another issue: Accessibility to buy the game. Not everyone has access to PayPal or a creditcard.


True. But speaking as a software developer, there isn't much we can do about that, other than provide an address where people can snail mail money to (as it happened in the days before the Internet). This said, the last time someone used this method to pay for Winstep software was years ago.

Actually, BMT Micro (Winstep's e-commerce provider) even allows you to pay by check, MO, or wire transfer.

kutagh wrote:
In the end: I know I'm breaking the law. But the most popular games are also the most downloaded games and from that you can see that there is demand for your game. If the ratio downloaders - buyers is extremely high (so you have a lot more downloaders than buyers) then there is something wrong. There is a core group that will download just because they can (and sometimes they won't even play it...) but I'm pretty sure that 75+% of the downloaders are willing to pay if they are guranteed a quality game.


Well, its a fact that entertainment always sells, even during hard financial times.

However, it is also a fact that most people won't pay unless they gain something from it (one software developer actually made that experience and reported back the results).

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Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:11 am 
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Well, I'm not one to try to really change ones opinion on this subject being how delicate it relies and is a result from the current economic state of the world anyways. I will make a couple points though, one is although I know how this thread started off, in reality obviously I don't dedicate my life to p2p or "sticking it to the man by pirating", mostly when i'm online I work on my website because I enjoy messing with code (obvious common ground between skinners and reverse engineers, which is a fascinating art in itself, a lot of the fun i get from the 'downloading scene' is seeing what new methods to protect software are being developed, and what ways the get circumvented. First thing I liked about this product, reminiscent of the dongle style, smart in a shell enhancer that most people would leave on alot :wink: ).
I will also say that without a doubt I am part of the solution, not the problem, and here's why: back in the pre-napster days, your averages Joe AOL user had NO clue of this 'red light district' of the internet. The dramatic blowup of its original use (and moreso the amount of press it got) woken up a LOT of people that had little clue on what is really going on and is available in the p2p world. Back then, definitely I would have been just another bad seed (pun intended obv). The cat's out of the bag now though, and given the rampant amount of pirating going on that really does hurt the developers I really only see one possible way to turn back the clock, not to the way it used to be, but to at least repair some of the damage with, along with a lot of companies being forced to change their business model to keep up with the digital age, can once again bring the software industry back to a self sustaining state.
The people out there that DO care about and recognize the fact that if the business cannot make money, it leaves along with the products they produce or would have produced, these are the people that need to educate the younger generations on what they are actually doing when they run endless torrents or download every game they want rather then buy it. At this point of the game, the only thing that will work is instilling the proper motives of when they "try before you buy", since regardless this epidemic won't stop from any form of law enforcement given all the variables involved, and without the older generations that believed in "the spirit of the internet" (which obviously refers to free flow of information, not stolen property), these kids really don't see the damage they cause, and will continue to go until the inevitable collapse of too many small passionate businesses and the prisons will get filled with the newest victimless-crime felons by the big businesses pressure on the government to enforce recklessly. Long story short, I try to minimize the damage I do cause (which is a lot less then it sounds given my passion on the subject), and try to repair the damage already hemorrhaging out one clueless script kiddie at a time.

Particular responses I did want to mention
winstep wrote:
A bit off-topic now, but the most amazing thing is that Gandhi proved that passive resistance works REALLY WELL. But did the world learn? Nah. Just look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has been going on for decades. As Gandhi once said too: "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

You gotta love what that guy stood for. :D

I would love to totally agree with this, although my faith in man is a little shaky to believe that the same methods will still work, a lot of things have changed since then especially a nations interest in keeping a good global reputation (well maybe thats because I'm in the US, not all nations may apply lol). Britain didn't want the backlash they would have gotten globally had they forced that hand, tbh I don't think the US would give a dam about how it would look on them. Love to be proven wrong someday.

winstep wrote:
And how are children educated to grow up with strong, moral values? By showing them that, to every action, there is a consequence (some good, some bad, depending on what the child did). So yes, fear the consequences is absolutely right, even for adults.

Only disagree because in practice it doesn't work, because parents hardly practice it. Most laws nowadays seem to be created "to protect the children" anyways, and the parents too easily trust the government to 'babysit' their children. I'm sorry this is the equivalent of "Why can't I do that? Well junior because I said so. That's all you need to know and you get in big trouble if you don't listen". Not only do people hardly concern themselves with obedience because rule of thumb the odds are in your favor you will get away with it, and alot just do the 'bad deed' for the artificial rush it gives them. Which boils down to one fact, Laws don't instill morals, communication with your children on 'why' something is bad and giving them some guidance they can value from that information, THAT is how you make change. Simpler example (which i detest being its a religious example which i hate structured religion more then I hate the capitalist system) would be to look at the big rise of Occult interest in young teens in the last decade. Ever hear the response from a Westernized religion based parent when their child asks questions regarding occult or 'new age'? "Get rid of that crap, you'll go to hell for looking at that. No I never read it either and you don't need to its just junk made up by people who don't understand God, they'll get theirs in the end". Well, close to that lol. Basically don't count on laws to instill the moral fiber in the youth, take it upon ourselves (obv know you weren't implying that the law was there for that, just reinforcing the futility of the cause/effect argument without the why factor)

winstep wrote:
s810car wrote:
Two excellent examples would be Prohibition


Errr, I would say that proves my reasoning. Bad laws eventually self-correct.

No,no,no,no,no.....k let me explain why I chose that example. Laws NEVER self-correct without the government wanting the change, or fierce opposition/disobedience to them. Anyone here like the old Godfather movies or the Untouchables series? Of just point blank, why did the Italian Mafia get such a strong hold of our culture shooting crime through the roof during the roaring 20's? Because of that wonderful law that NOBODY respected during that time. Speakeasys, bootleggers (hey a term we use now made famous back then! fun times :lol:) They couldn't repeal that failure of control fast enough, and with that a lot of the public attention the Mafia got soon faded away, along with the crime related to that (obviously they didn't disappear after, but with a good chunk of their black market sales gone by it being legal, they quietly went to whatever strengths they had after, I wouldn't have a good answer for what really).
Of course we never learn and with the 20th/21st century new 'prohibition' of category 1 drugs, guess what, crime and violence is higher then ever. Just people aren't as smart as they were back then with disobedience and support this, which while I understand the damage drugs do to society, the greater damage is being left alone with the cartels bringing 'dem drugs in (obviously some good cuts being taken by some shady people to allow this so long, but thats another story lol)
On that note, lastly I do want to add that I DO believe copyright laws are important, just that they are abused and hardly get to be utilized for their real intent (or worse being used for extortion by greedy lawyers, and the big companies wanting to punish Joe p2p to have it scare the rest into compliance. Sad)
winstep wrote:
s810car wrote:
The resources are not finite if used the way they evolved to be part of the world with.

...Anyway, the world is finite, it can be measured. Therefore, so are resources.

I think I was giving an inferred definition of 'finite', i assumed by that you were implying that they will run out at some point, which i disagree with. The world is completely capable of replenishing its resources, even its biological mass (given its had mass extinction/wipeout periods at least 3-4 times in its lifespan). Only because we abuse the hell out of it do we see a end point for resources, which if we were that stupid and condemned ourselves to that fate, the world will survive and come back. Just we won't. That being the case, it is completely imaginable a resource based economy is workable, people just can't fathom it due to the class/caste system we placed ourselves in is really close to impossible to break out of. As long as greed dictates some people to believe they have more value then the next man, and the common man accepts this judgment of inferiority like they do now, things will never change.
I haven't checked that URL yet, I am always hesitant to credit ANY source that uses the 'S' word or thinks that that's the answer. What I'm talking about is not answered by socialism (and every socialist 'movement' seems to widen the class gap in my view, not remove it). I will, however review it shortly in the spirit of the debate, can't argue my points if I don't see others :wink:


winstep wrote:
You know why you think this way? Because you can identify with individual persons but not with corporations.

Agree on all that, but that goes back to what eggs i have to crack to make an omelet. I don't like the thought of more mass layoffs, but in practice at least collapsing the corp. in this manner destroys it all at once rather then allowing them to destroy the employees lives and continue to feed the prick at the top with huge bonuses. Good case in point
http://www.ktvu.com/news/23548634/detail.html and http://www.chinafinancialdaily.com/fina ... eople.html , which led to HUGE bonuses for the top dogs or heck even their "in" club people in corporate http://www.glassdoor.com/Bonuses/Chevro ... E13524.htm
Course this is the same company that does this http://alittlereality.blogspot.com/2010 ... evron.html
Yea I'd say I don't identify with them, but I would do a LOT more then pirate goods from them have I the chance.


winstep wrote:
I agree that this is indeed the sad state of the world today, but only partially with the causes you stated. Greed has always been a part of mankind since, well, ever. So, out-of-control materialism, no doubt, but that is only part of the cause.

I think a bigger problem is an exacerbated sense of entitlement, without a matching sense of responsibility. We abuse our rights. As the ancient orator Isocrates once said: “Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”

We think that, in the name of freedom, everything should be permitted, come up with excuses on why this should be so, and continuously stretch the boundaries of what is wrong and what is right. We allow ourselves to be exposed to the most atrocious acts until our hearts harden and we think nothing of it anymore.

And then this becomes our 'gift' to our children: a twisted sense of morals where respect for other points of view is confused with 'everything goes'. We forget that freedom has a very heavy price: responsibility. Unfortunately we want one without the other.

On the other hand, materialistic speaking, we never had it so good: only 40 years ago, having steak once a week was considered a luxury here in Portugal. Now you are considered poor if you don't have a cell phone or a car. Each one of us lives in more comfort that Kings did back in the middle ages.

But, ah, are we generally more happy? I have never seen so many dysfunctional people, so many lonely people, so many broken families, as we have these days. So I guess that the 'everything goes' mentality is definitely not the way to happiness. We need good, solid rules. It is what keeps us grounded.


Left the whole quote because I definitely agree point for point, and the last paragraph is what drives it home (again my opinion on what proper rules make sense differ, but understand the importance of law and as I said 'everything goes' is not quite my opinion either).
Mankind lost the spirit of living when they decided to embrace luxury over sustenance from the world around them. Best advice I could give is when taking your next vacation (you, meaning anyone who wishes to gain some valuable experience from this long winded debate lol ) make sure its one with camping or some time in the few undeveloped, not raped yet parts of the world, and spend a couple hours a day just observing the wildlife and how they communicate with each other and the world around them. Guarantee even with everything they have dealt with in losing their way of life to civilization, they still have a vigor and happiness with life (and yes animals and plants do feel happiness, anyone who would dispute that wouldn't get any value from this debate anyways)



Anyways, meet your deadlines, don't worry about me I 'll be around anytime for continuing (or ceasing) this one, I'll be looking for ideas for this awesome product anyways :)


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:31 am 
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Posts: 30
kutagh wrote:
To be frank with games, there is another issue.

The points on why you use p2p are definetly all valid imo obviously. Reminds me of a good source I read recently which gave me a more quantitative idea of the damage that IS caused rather than the perceived damage others state
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

I LOVE his conclusion, in brief: "If you do it, at least call a spade a spade" Good points for game manufacturers too, times a-changing and while unfortunately the real people that get hurt from this have few options but to evolve or become extinct.
On your accessibility issue, thats the kinda stuff that make me sick at these companies that refuse to see the consumers view. While I'm sure some would take advantage of this, I really think there should be a law allowing the return of ANYTHING that is deemed unusable due to a disability keeping the consumer from enjoying the product (hell i'd go as far as legalizing a reversed engineered product that is repackaged and sold for the sole purpose of expanding the consumer base to allow the disabled person to use the product). That's a true travesty there isn't

kutagh wrote:
The copyright system is nice. The patent system is actually destroying the innovation currently. There are companies that buy patents and then start demanding royalties for the usage of the patents while the company themselves does absolutely nothing with it. Currently for a newcomer without a lot of cash it is pretty hard to actually start a company with a new product, there is a patent for even the most vague things such as "A method to flick the page of a virtual book on a touchscreen". That is just an idea, not technology.


The abuse of the system, and why there is more and more people that feel the same way I do on this. Obviously, some use as their excuse for the personal gain, but thats unfortunately a by-product of mixing a passionate cause with the typical greedy nature of mankind. Some still believe it it though :) good post, makes me wanna go see what other garbage patents are out there (raise your hand if you got a deja vu of the dot com snatch-up days :lol: )


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:15 pm 
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winstep wrote:
kutagh wrote:
Call of Duty: Black Ops. I've spent over 64 hours on it now. Definitely a good purchase.


Can't speak about multi-player, but I thought the single-player campaign was boring (too scripted) until the last few chapters (playing it on Veteran). I loved the previous COD games though.

kutagh wrote:
Another issue: Accessibility to buy the game. Not everyone has access to PayPal or a creditcard.


True. But speaking as a software developer, there isn't much we can do about that, other than provide an address where people can snail mail money to (as it happened in the days before the Internet). This said, the last time someone used this method to pay for Winstep software was years ago.

Actually, BMT Micro (Winstep's e-commerce provider) even allows you to pay by check, MO, or wire transfer.

kutagh wrote:
In the end: I know I'm breaking the law. But the most popular games are also the most downloaded games and from that you can see that there is demand for your game. If the ratio downloaders - buyers is extremely high (so you have a lot more downloaders than buyers) then there is something wrong. There is a core group that will download just because they can (and sometimes they won't even play it...) but I'm pretty sure that 75+% of the downloaders are willing to pay if they are guranteed a quality game.


Well, its a fact that entertainment always sells, even during hard financial times.

However, it is also a fact that most people won't pay unless they gain something from it (one software developer actually made that experience and reported back the results).


@CoD: IMO you shouldn't buy CoD for it's single-player. That is just an 'added bonus' IMO. I purchased Black Ops for the multi-player.
You know what's sad? Modern Warfare 2 has a pirated multiplayer option which has actually better features and such than the legal version. For example legit MW2 has no dedicated servers, next to no player-made mods (gungame, sharpshooter, one in the chamber were all mods available for MW2) and it isn't/wasn't monitored as actively as the illegal version. As the illegal version developed, nothing changed in the legit MW2. The map packs for MW2 were barely played in the legit version while they appeared more often in the illegal version showing that it is the implementation that failed.

Some of my friends download literally all single-player games and only buy the games that have multi-player (example would've been a Belgian friend about Mafia 2. He was really waiting for Mafia 2 to get released but downloaded it...). That's sad for the developers creating a pure single-player game... But it is also a signal that there needs to be more options to play together with your friends as the gaming culture has changed. For example, take a look at Portal and Portal 2. You don't necessarily have to adapt your game for co-op if you can add a second campaign specifically designed for co-op. I think that for example Assassin's creed could've been done like that.

About the payment issues, Valve has an extensive library of payment options. They even support iDeal which is rarely available in a non-Dutch webshop. They had a turn-over of almost a billion dollar. Yes, developers can't do that much about the issue but they can push their publishers to try to have at least 3 different kinds of payment options (preferably retail as well but for small indie games/software that isn't really doable).
To me, it is about the service as well as quality of the games. We just don't want to be a 'number' to companies, we want proper service.

By the way, shouldn't we split/move this topic to off-topic? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:00 pm 
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s810car wrote:
Basically don't count on laws to instill the moral fiber in the youth, take it upon ourselves (obv know you weren't implying that the law was there for that, just reinforcing the futility of the cause/effect argument without the why factor)


Now more than ever, it's the parent's responsibility to educate their children, no one else's. School should help, obviously, but primary education MUST come from the parents.

On the other hand, not so long ago, children were educated by the *whole* population of the villages they lived in (teachers, neighbours, authority, etc...) - and that was very effective. But then, small populations tend to share the same moral values, and that doesn't work quite the same in big cities.

I remember, back in the 70's when I was a 6 year old kid playing on the streets of Mozambique, a huge drunk who was so out of it that he was literally breaking down a heavy solid wood door with his head, blood streaming down his face, lips blue with alcohol, threatening everyone that came close. Lots of people gathered around and I got closer and closer, completely unaware of the potential danger I was in.

But then a neighbour who knew me came to investigate what all the fuss was about and spotted me in the middle of all that confusion - he slapped me so hard that I still remember this as if it had happened yesterday, and sent me flying home. He didn't waste time explaining why to me, nor did he need to - seen through my adult eyes today, what he did simply shows how much he really cared.

My mother wasn't too happy about it, of course, but he did the right thing. Sometimes I remember him fondly because of that day (obviously not because of the slap itself, that hurt like hell, but the reasons behind it). And, even though I wasn't told why (I wouldn't have understood it at the time anyway, all kids think they are immortal at that age), I'm sure the memory of that slap was a constant reminder to stay away from similar trouble from then on.

I later learned, back in Portugal, that he was killed by a stray bullet during the Mozambique colonial war (he was a pilot in the military). He left behind his wife and two small kids my age.

Explaining why is important, of course, but don't expect a young child, completely inexperienced in life, to understand the reasons of an adult.

s810car wrote:
Reminds me of a good source I read recently which gave me a more quantitative idea of the damage that IS caused rather than the perceived damage others state
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html


Great link, thank you. He did a truly exhaustive job, and it's amazing how much he mirrors what I think about the whole subject.

kutagh wrote:
You know what's sad? Modern Warfare 2 has a pirated multiplayer option which has actually better features and such than the legal version.


Yeah, but guess what? It's easy to improve on what is already there, building it from the ground up, on the other hand... Without the effort put into making the legit version by the original developers, there never would have been an 'improved pirate multiplayer version'. :wink:

kutagh wrote:
By the way, shouldn't we split/move this topic to off-topic? :roll:


Nah. :D

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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:54 pm 
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winstep wrote:

Explaining why is important, of course, but don't expect a young child, completely inexperienced in life, to understand the reasons of an adult.

Of course this is definitely true, but the circumstance you describe is a little different as for one, its not a victimless crime should you have been physically hurt (of course being economically hurt is not necessarily without a victim, but a little less critical in a humane way), and two time was of the essence when you were in immanent danger. A law meant to protect someone in a financial way has danger for the criminal (as far as fines/penalties) but can't be expected to give the moral lesson the child needs, like you said. I know myself for one would feel like an idiot if I stopped my child from stealing and left it at that, not explaining why it was wrong to do, especially because it would be almost guaranteed to happen again in the future if not explained. Definitely good lesson for kids tho, avoid 'dem crazies cause we have too many around nowadays :lol:

winstep wrote:
kutagh wrote:
You know what's sad? Modern Warfare 2 has a pirated multiplayer option which has actually better features and such than the legal version.


Yeah, but guess what? It's easy to improve on what is already there, building it from the ground up, on the other hand... Without the effort put into making the legit version by the original developers, there never would have been an 'improved pirate multiplayer version'. :wink:


I'm curious on what the general opinion would be for "fan created" expansions, while obviously allowed to be given away free, what you would feel about being able to market your product? This is obviously different then just adding multiplayer to the original game as the original code would have to be used and therefore licensed, unless perhaps coding to only work with a bought product and only adding the multiplayer function? Or, in a more direct example, I don't know the policy for selling premium themes for Winstep, which I'm sure you have a policy for, but what about those instances?


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 Post subject: Re: New Buyer questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:15 am 
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winstep wrote:
s810car wrote:
Basically don't count on laws to instill the moral fiber in the youth, take it upon ourselves (obv know you weren't implying that the law was there for that, just reinforcing the futility of the cause/effect argument without the why factor)


Now more than ever, it's the parent's responsibility to educate their children, no one else's. School should help, obviously, but primary education MUST come from the parents.

On the other hand, not so long ago, children were educated by the *whole* population of the villages they lived in (teachers, neighbours, authority, etc...) - and that was very effective. But then, small populations tend to share the same moral values, and that doesn't work quite the same in big cities.

I remember, back in the 70's when I was a 6 year old kid playing on the streets of Mozambique, a huge drunk who was so out of it that he was literally breaking down a heavy solid wood door with his head, blood streaming down his face, lips blue with alcohol, threatening everyone that came close. Lots of people gathered around and I got closer and closer, completely unaware of the potential danger I was in.

But then a neighbour who knew me came to investigate what all the fuss was about and spotted me in the middle of all that confusion - he slapped me so hard that I still remember this as if it had happened yesterday, and sent me flying home. He didn't waste time explaining why to me, nor did he need to - seen through my adult eyes today, what he did simply shows how much he really cared.

My mother wasn't too happy about it, of course, but he did the right thing. Sometimes I remember him fondly because of that day (obviously not because of the slap itself, that hurt like hell, but the reasons behind it). And, even though I wasn't told why (I wouldn't have understood it at the time anyway, all kids think they are immortal at that age), I'm sure the memory of that slap was a constant reminder to stay away from similar trouble from then on.

I later learned, back in Portugal, that he was killed by a stray bullet during the Mozambique colonial war (he was a pilot in the military). He left behind his wife and two small kids my age.

Explaining why is important, of course, but don't expect a young child, completely inexperienced in life, to understand the reasons of an adult.

s810car wrote:
Reminds me of a good source I read recently which gave me a more quantitative idea of the damage that IS caused rather than the perceived damage others state
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html


Great link, thank you. He did a truly exhaustive job, and it's amazing how much he mirrors what I think about the whole subject.

kutagh wrote:
You know what's sad? Modern Warfare 2 has a pirated multiplayer option which has actually better features and such than the legal version.


Yeah, but guess what? It's easy to improve on what is already there, building it from the ground up, on the other hand... Without the effort put into making the legit version by the original developers, there never would have been an 'improved pirate multiplayer version'. :wink:

kutagh wrote:
By the way, shouldn't we split/move this topic to off-topic? :roll:


Nah. :D


What I meant regarding MW2 was: The development team behind MW2 never actually took the time to investigate what the illegal version did and adopt the positives into their own system. Yes, the gungame and such got adopted in Black Ops, by a different development team. Which is actually my point: They aren't caring that much about the game anymore but more about earning the most money with the least effort.

As I said before to friends: I don't think that the current business model is really viable anymore. I'd rather move on towards a more subscription based model where all the publishers are unified into one system (preferably Steam or a Steam-like platform). But that is already the first main hurdle: The only ones that are going to join are the ones that are making the quality games. The rotten eggs will continue with what they're currently doing.
In terms of subscriptions there should be several packages: A 'new hot stuff' package consisting mainly of the newest games for a couple weeks and then mainly genre-focused packages (for example, sport games subscription, RPG's subscription). The publishers would earn money based on how much their games got played. This would actually encourage all publishers to maintain a large library of games and actively supporting/updating their games instead of just making a quick buck out of the customers. IMO games aren't products but a service, entertainment.

It is just like with soccer games: You can buy a season ticket and you can see all the matches played that season. It is basically subscription-based: For each season you need to pay again. You're not paying for a product, you're paying for a service, for entertainment.

This system would actually remove the contrast between a 'normal multiplayer shooter like CoD' and a MMORPG in terms of payments, you can play both for years.


Going to move to another point:
Piracy because of convenience. Why the hell would you buy a DVD for a movie nowadays? You'll just get a bunch of unskippable movies about why you shouldn't pirate before you can finally watch your movie. It'd be more convenient to download an .avi (or .mkv for you x264 addicts) with the exception of subtitles... (Which for me is actually a bit of a problem :roll: ). That is also why services like Steam are doing well, they make it more convenient to buy your games. Steam supports iDeal so no hassle with stuff like PayPal and such, I can sometimes even preload the game so I don't have to download 14GB on release day. I have that Steam overlay in the majority of games I own on Steam so I can stay in touch with my friends regardless of the games I/they are playing. If I don't have internet, I can still play my games (with exception of the multiplayer ones).

Steam provides a convenient service that doesn't complain about piracy or whatever. They crafted it to be as convenient as possible to the users and that is how they have a huge user-base. Even better, ever encountered the free weekend stuff that Steam does? For example with Modern Warfare 2 they have had 2 or 3 times a free weekend so you could play for a weekend regardless of whether you've purchased the game or not. They've done it for Unreal Tournament 3 as well when the Titan DLC got released (for free for PC users :)) and they had more UT3 sales than when UT3 got released. Therefore: People do want to make sure they can play the game and enjoy it before they want to buy it however they are quite willing to pay!


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