Well, I'm not one to try to really change ones opinion on this subject being how delicate it relies and is a result from the current economic state of the world anyways. I will make a couple points though, one is although I know how this thread started off, in reality obviously I don't dedicate my life to p2p or "sticking it to the man by pirating", mostly when i'm online I work on my website because I enjoy messing with code (obvious common ground between skinners and reverse engineers, which is a fascinating art in itself, a lot of the fun i get from the 'downloading scene' is seeing what new methods to protect software are being developed, and what ways the get circumvented. First thing I liked about this product, reminiscent of the dongle style, smart in a shell enhancer that most people would leave on alot
).
I will also say that without a doubt I am part of the solution, not the problem, and here's why: back in the pre-napster days, your averages Joe AOL user had NO clue of this 'red light district' of the internet. The dramatic blowup of its original use (and moreso the amount of press it got) woken up a LOT of people that had little clue on what is really going on and is available in the p2p world. Back then, definitely I would have been just another bad seed (pun intended obv). The cat's out of the bag now though, and given the rampant amount of pirating going on that really does hurt the developers I really only see one possible way to turn back the clock, not to the way it used to be, but to at least repair some of the damage with, along with a lot of companies being forced to change their business model to keep up with the digital age, can once again bring the software industry back to a self sustaining state.
The people out there that DO care about and recognize the fact that if the business cannot make money, it leaves along with the products they produce or would have produced, these are the people that need to educate the younger generations on what they are actually doing when they run endless torrents or download every game they want rather then buy it. At this point of the game, the only thing that will work is instilling the proper motives of when they "try before you buy", since regardless this epidemic won't stop from any form of law enforcement given all the variables involved, and without the older generations that believed in "the spirit of the internet" (which obviously refers to free flow of information, not stolen property), these kids really don't see the damage they cause, and will continue to go until the inevitable collapse of too many small passionate businesses and the prisons will get filled with the newest victimless-crime felons by the big businesses pressure on the government to enforce recklessly. Long story short, I try to minimize the damage I do cause (which is a lot less then it sounds given my passion on the subject), and try to repair the damage already hemorrhaging out one clueless script kiddie at a time.
Particular responses I did want to mention
winstep wrote:
A bit off-topic now, but the most amazing thing is that Gandhi proved that passive resistance works REALLY WELL. But did the world learn? Nah. Just look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has been going on for decades. As Gandhi once said too: "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".
You gotta love what that guy stood for.
I would love to totally agree with this, although my faith in man is a little shaky to believe that the same methods will still work, a lot of things have changed since then especially a nations interest in keeping a good global reputation (well maybe thats because I'm in the US, not all nations may apply lol). Britain didn't want the backlash they would have gotten globally had they forced that hand, tbh I don't think the US would give a dam about how it would look on them. Love to be proven wrong someday.
winstep wrote:
And how are children educated to grow up with strong, moral values? By showing them that, to every action, there is a consequence (some good, some bad, depending on what the child did). So yes, fear the consequences is absolutely right, even for adults.
Only disagree because in practice it doesn't work, because parents hardly practice it. Most laws nowadays seem to be created "to protect the children" anyways, and the parents too easily trust the government to 'babysit' their children. I'm sorry this is the equivalent of "Why can't I do that? Well junior because I said so. That's all you need to know and you get in big trouble if you don't listen". Not only do people hardly concern themselves with obedience because rule of thumb the odds are in your favor you will get away with it, and alot just do the 'bad deed' for the artificial rush it gives them. Which boils down to one fact, Laws don't instill morals, communication with your children on 'why' something is bad and giving them some guidance they can value from that information, THAT is how you make change. Simpler example (which i detest being its a religious example which i hate structured religion more then I hate the capitalist system) would be to look at the big rise of Occult interest in young teens in the last decade. Ever hear the response from a Westernized religion based parent when their child asks questions regarding occult or 'new age'? "Get rid of that crap, you'll go to hell for looking at that. No I never read it either and you don't need to its just junk made up by people who don't understand God, they'll get theirs in the end". Well, close to that lol. Basically don't count on laws to instill the moral fiber in the youth, take it upon ourselves (obv know you weren't implying that the law was there for that, just reinforcing the futility of the cause/effect argument without the why factor)
winstep wrote:
s810car wrote:
Two excellent examples would be Prohibition
Errr, I would say that proves my reasoning. Bad laws eventually self-correct.
No,no,no,no,no.....k let me explain why I chose that example. Laws NEVER self-correct without the government wanting the change, or fierce opposition/disobedience to them. Anyone here like the old Godfather movies or the Untouchables series? Of just point blank, why did the Italian Mafia get such a strong hold of our culture shooting crime through the roof during the roaring 20's? Because of that wonderful law that NOBODY respected during that time. Speakeasys, bootleggers (hey a term we use now made famous back then! fun times
) They couldn't repeal that failure of control fast enough, and with that a lot of the public attention the Mafia got soon faded away, along with the crime related to that (obviously they didn't disappear after, but with a good chunk of their black market sales gone by it being legal, they quietly went to whatever strengths they had after, I wouldn't have a good answer for what really).
Of course we never learn and with the 20th/21st century new 'prohibition' of category 1 drugs, guess what, crime and violence is higher then ever. Just people aren't as smart as they were back then with disobedience and support this, which while I understand the damage drugs do to society, the greater damage is being left alone with the cartels bringing 'dem drugs in (obviously some good cuts being taken by some shady people to allow this so long, but thats another story lol)
On that note, lastly I do want to add that I DO believe copyright laws are important, just that they are abused and hardly get to be utilized for their real intent (or worse being used for extortion by greedy lawyers, and the big companies wanting to punish Joe p2p to have it scare the rest into compliance. Sad)
winstep wrote:
s810car wrote:
The resources are not finite if used the way they evolved to be part of the world with.
...Anyway, the world is finite, it can be measured. Therefore, so are resources.
I think I was giving an inferred definition of 'finite', i assumed by that you were implying that they will run out at some point, which i disagree with. The world is completely capable of replenishing its resources, even its biological mass (given its had mass extinction/wipeout periods at least 3-4 times in its lifespan). Only because we abuse the hell out of it do we see a end point for resources, which if we were that stupid and condemned ourselves to that fate, the world will survive and come back. Just we won't. That being the case, it is completely imaginable a resource based economy is workable, people just can't fathom it due to the class/caste system we placed ourselves in is really close to impossible to break out of. As long as greed dictates some people to believe they have more value then the next man, and the common man accepts this judgment of inferiority like they do now, things will never change.
I haven't checked that URL yet, I am always hesitant to credit ANY source that uses the 'S' word or thinks that that's the answer. What I'm talking about is not answered by socialism (and every socialist 'movement' seems to widen the class gap in my view, not remove it). I will, however review it shortly in the spirit of the debate, can't argue my points if I don't see others
winstep wrote:
You know why you think this way? Because you can identify with individual persons but not with corporations.
Agree on all that, but that goes back to what eggs i have to crack to make an omelet. I don't like the thought of more mass layoffs, but in practice at least collapsing the corp. in this manner destroys it all at once rather then allowing them to destroy the employees lives and continue to feed the prick at the top with huge bonuses. Good case in point
http://www.ktvu.com/news/23548634/detail.html and
http://www.chinafinancialdaily.com/fina ... eople.html , which led to HUGE bonuses for the top dogs or heck even their "in" club people in corporate
http://www.glassdoor.com/Bonuses/Chevro ... E13524.htmCourse this is the same company that does this
http://alittlereality.blogspot.com/2010 ... evron.htmlYea I'd say I don't identify with them, but I would do a LOT more then pirate goods from them have I the chance.
winstep wrote:
I agree that this is indeed the sad state of the world today, but only partially with the causes you stated. Greed has always been a part of mankind since, well, ever. So, out-of-control materialism, no doubt, but that is only part of the cause.
I think a bigger problem is an exacerbated sense of entitlement, without a matching sense of responsibility. We abuse our rights. As the ancient orator Isocrates once said: “Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”
We think that, in the name of freedom, everything should be permitted, come up with excuses on why this should be so, and continuously stretch the boundaries of what is wrong and what is right. We allow ourselves to be exposed to the most atrocious acts until our hearts harden and we think nothing of it anymore.
And then this becomes our 'gift' to our children: a twisted sense of morals where respect for other points of view is confused with 'everything goes'. We forget that freedom has a very heavy price: responsibility. Unfortunately we want one without the other.
On the other hand, materialistic speaking, we never had it so good: only 40 years ago, having steak once a week was considered a luxury here in Portugal. Now you are considered poor if you don't have a cell phone or a car. Each one of us lives in more comfort that Kings did back in the middle ages.
But, ah, are we generally more happy? I have never seen so many dysfunctional people, so many lonely people, so many broken families, as we have these days. So I guess that the 'everything goes' mentality is definitely not the way to happiness. We need good, solid rules. It is what keeps us grounded.
Left the whole quote because I definitely agree point for point, and the last paragraph is what drives it home (again my opinion on what proper rules make sense differ, but understand the importance of law and as I said 'everything goes' is not quite my opinion either).
Mankind lost the spirit of living when they decided to embrace luxury over sustenance from the world around them. Best advice I could give is when taking your next vacation (you, meaning anyone who wishes to gain some valuable experience from this long winded debate lol ) make sure its one with camping or some time in the few undeveloped, not raped yet parts of the world, and spend a couple hours a day just observing the wildlife and how they communicate with each other and the world around them. Guarantee even with everything they have dealt with in losing their way of life to civilization, they still have a vigor and happiness with life (and yes animals and plants do feel happiness, anyone who would dispute that wouldn't get any value from this debate anyways)
Anyways, meet your deadlines, don't worry about me I 'll be around anytime for continuing (or ceasing) this one, I'll be looking for ideas for this awesome product anyways