@NEXTER
You know your history. Then you know it never has truly had anything in its origin as anything other than a pagan ritual according to many scholars for a long time, but the earliest known celebration of Christmas on this date can be traced back to the Philocalian Calendar in AD 354, which does not indicate a direct borrowing from pagan traditions. The Saturnalia, Yule etc... are now being questioned as to their direct influence on Christmas. The Lutherans in the 16th Century are one of the earlier cultures to have adopted 'The Christmas Tree'.

Does it matter? Not really.
Kids love it and all the pomp, mystery and splendour associated with it, and it is a time where families get together. I think that's the important takeaway for me. The ostentatious consumerism everyone is over, but Christmas is for the children from where I sit.

Yes, that's according to the "PC Revisionists". Not buying into all that sh**, no time for that at all. As for the Christmas Tree, nobody said it had any connection to the old Yule log - it doesn't. It's purely a 'modern' Lutheran invention. It never reached tthe Anglophone world until the German Prince Consort Albert introduced it to Britain. Until then, the only decorations were a kind of 'symbolic' Yule log - a small piece of a tree branch, decorated with a candle and some fir twigs, and holly and ivy. This 'shambolic' Yule log still survives in the UK, albeit in a more decorated way. At least, in some households apparently.

You are rationalising. It's BS, you keep telling yourself it's like that and making your ducks swans. Kids only like that crap because they're indoctrinated into it, and because they receive presents (and far too many of them and far too expensive ones). Families getting together is, mostly, just a sick joke. Many never see one another the rest of the year, many even end up in fierce arguments, and somebody's always pissed off because they only got a cheap and nasty present. Nothing more than one humongous, plastic, consumer fest. Granted, it wasn't always so. There was a time when kids were delighted with getting a big cardboard box and an orange for a present, and adults simple, affordable stuff, like some 'luxury' soap or whatever. I can remember these things from neighbours when I was a kid - thankfully we didn't have any of that crap at home and us kids were never lied to about some imbecile Santa etc.

That reminds of this joke that was based on true events : Little Timmy was at his friend Jack's home across the yard from his own parents' home. While at the window looking across to his home, Timmy saw his mum greet Santa with a hug and a long kiss, and Santa giving his mum a right rogering! Well, he told his dad, "Dad, I don't want anything from Santa. He's a nasty dirty man and was carrying on on top of mum last night, and I saw it all!" Something like that, IIRC.

@NEXTER

First, being rational is sensible these days.

Second, who doesn't like seeing kids being happy at Christmas? You? It's sort of sounding like it, if they do not believe in the same things that you believe.

Third, if Christmas is the only time families can get together in person because they live in different countries, is that a bad thing? Or just to you? Not everyone can afford to fly thousands of miles monthly or weekly.

Last, I cannot speak for 8 billion people in the world, so the parts of the world who tell their children about the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and other fantasy characters, which number in probably billions must also be idiots eh? Based on what you are saying.

Nobody denies you the right to believe whatever you wish to believe. I certainly do not. Consider that having different beliefs doesn't make anyone or you better or worse, only different. Crapping on other's beliefs in any circle has never been a good look for anyone. People believe in God, Buddha and other things, too many to list. I do not think less of anyone who has different beliefs even if I think I could never believe in the same things.

A person defines themselves and I do my best to treat others as I would wish to be treated myself. I do not regret that my parents did the Santa thing with me, as unreal as that is. It is a part of learning to dream and hope and many other positive things. It may well be nothing other than pure fantasy, but for some people in the world, it provides joy. This is something I cannot willingly crap on, even if it was something I found to be pure fiction.

@BassdudeNZ - First of all, I'm moving this discourse into 'Off Topic' forum which is where it belongs, under a new title, 'Happy Consumerfest?'

Rational is precisely what my analysis is, rational, logical, and realistic. I live in the real world, not in cloud cuckoo land. Making one's ducks swans is hardly rational.
Woah! You're making a rather ill-conceived huge assumption here, i.e., that I "believe" something, or anything for that matter. Nowhere in this discourse have I expressed any such thing. Just being perfectly rational, logical, and realistic. Your emotive statement about seeing children happy at Giftmas is just that - emotive, emotional, far removed from cold rationalism and logic. Frankly, I couldn't give a shiny sh**e about whether or not it makes kids happy. That's their and their parents' problem.

Whoa! More personalised assumptions if not attacks. You're letting your emotions get the better of you. Take it easy, OK? Deep breaths, calm down. Nobody said anything about families separated by countries or continents. I don't know what planet you're trying to live on, but the reality here on Earth in the western / Giftfest celebrating world is that a) most families are not separated by countries etc. but live in relative proximities, and b) the designation "family" is highly debatable in itself, given that even the nuclear family has become largely dysfunctional and that at any rate, people more often than not can't stand one another the rest of the year! Heck, a hell of a lot of these reunion celebrations end in fierce rows for goodness' sake!

Why more assumptions?! If you read carefully, in the first place I didn't call anyone 'idiots' anywhere. But if you're happy to label those fantasists thus, who am I to disillusion you? After all, I take a pretty dim, even cynical, yet realistic view of mankind as a species myself. (Traditional tribal societies exempted - there's a hell of a lot that modern society could learn from them if they had the intelligence.) The 'Giftfest' celebrating population of this planet is a minority of that 8+ (fast approaching 9) billion, incidentally.


Whoa, hold it right there please. First off, as I mentioned already, don't make assumptions as to my "believing" anything or not. Beyond that, let's not get into talking about belief systems, let alone religions. Those topics are hardly areas for rational, logical discussion, and besides, very quickly tend to get out of hand.


Come on, learning to dream and hope has nothing to do with it. Kids don't need outright lies and deception for that.

I think this discourse is not leading to anything good, so I'll take my leave here and won't continue further.