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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:19 am 
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nexter wrote:
A couple - well, three actually - of simple/supplementary points remain Jorge. I've underlined the salient points and added supplementaries where necessary. MTIA.

nexter wrote:
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Question - how can I get a GridStack onto a hotspot in the QL of the NS Taskbar?

For the moment, you can't - and while I see how this would be useful .... we have a problem: ....

So, at the moment I am not really sure how to solve this problem.

.... Anyway, so it should be possible to have a QL hotspot for an icon in a shelf etc., but I imagine this would open the GS by the original icon?
winstep wrote:
....Set the clock style to digital .... enable 'Show time only'.

nexter wrote:
.... Also, if everything else was moved up a little, there would be ample space for the date as well. Anyway, so what would be so wrong if skinners could perhaps set the colour and font of the text? It's only a tiny step really and I'm sure you would see a lot more digital clocks in themes. (I presume this would already work with a WsClockD.* icon?)

nexter wrote:
I guess I'll find out at some point within the next couple of days when I'm 'test-driving' a theme I'm working on with digital clocks. :)

nexter wrote:
winstep wrote:
I never said anything about *USER* changes being saved, what I said is that the settings that define the color of histograms in a particular theme can be set by the SKINNER in the theme configuration files. They can also be changed by the user after loading the theme, but this will not save the new colors to the theme.

Oh, right, so at the moment we can only save it by manually editing the appropriate config line in the config file?

nexter wrote:
And which line/s?
And does the same apply to the grid colours for the shelf's icon grid?


nexter wrote:
Oh, and I'll be able to get/run the betas soon as should be home this afternoon. So probably by Sunday, as have to do a full backup that's overdue by now. :)

OK, I've thoroughly investigated the newer, time only in-shelf/-dock digital clock and even managed to figure how to save the font colour to the config file.

Now, at 48 px icon size, it's just about fine (that horrible LCD matrix font and effect makes it harder to read than necessary). But, take it down one size, and you can't really see anything properly and at 16 px it's just a blot anyway. But, at 48 px there'd be more than ample space for the date (in slightly smaller font size and short date) if the time was moved up a little. Oh, and the weekday line is a waste even at 200% so that could easily go. :)

16 px icons were never meant for anything like this - there only rightful place and function is in File Explorer folder trees and other such file listings, and of course the system tray/notification area. So why worry about people who are daft enough to abuse this by using 16 px icons where they should never be used in the first place?

The other above issues still remain, btw.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:27 am 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
Also noted the power options in controlpanel are back displaying a "?" Icon also.


Screenshot, please.

Windy wrote:
That sounds like this correct? If so, I'm all in!!

"So, imagine when the single-tab Shelf is bumped, it opens like the Grid Stack does, without the icon row limitations, and collapses back to whatever the docked size/Scale is set to."


NO IT DOES NOT!!! Windy, you are confusing everything, scaling settings with collapsing sizes, folder related features in folder type tabs with (somehow!) Grid Stacks and Shelves, etc..! Please stop. lol

I already told you Shelves, Drawers and Grid Stacks are meant for completely different things. I also already told you what to do if you want to make a single tabbed Shelf expand to more than one row of icons:

1. Create the single tabbed Shelf.
2. In the Shelf Properties dialog go to Appearance tab -> More Options
3. Set 'How many rows of icons would you like the shelf to display when open?' to however many icon rows you want the Shelf to display when open. If you want it to fill the whole screen, set that number to 99 or whatever.

Drawers will not and are NOT meant to behave like Grid Stacks by suddenly sprouting multi-rows of icons. Drawers are single row, single tabbed. End of discussion. :P

sacco_belmonte wrote:
I dig it. However is also better to open some folders in explorer. (maybe a right click option on a folder?) because I might to run a search on a folder with many files instead.


Goes without saying. There is also no way to mark a folder in a folder type tab as 'Show Folder as a Menu' as you can in the Item Properties dialog of a dock item or an item in a Regular tab, but you can still view them in a menu by right clicking the folder and selecting 'Browse' from the right-click menu.

Likewise, if you select 'Open' in the right click menu, it would open in Explorer.

sacco_belmonte wrote:
Most likely I would be glad to see folders opening as stacks, so me opening only one or two by right clicking them is not a deal breaker.


Only problem with this is that now I have to implement 'temporary' (in memory) Stacks lol

Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?

nexter wrote:
But, take it down one size, and you can't really see anything properly and at 16 px it's just a blot anyway.


Ric, all you are doing is proving me right. As I pointed out many times before, iconic modules ARE NOT SUITABLE for free form skinning precisely because of this reason, and never will be.

nexter wrote:
So why worry about people who are daft enough to abuse this by using 16 px icons where they should never be used in the first place?


See? This perfectly illustrates the difference between theory and practice. In theory they shouldn't, in practice they do. All systems - without exception - that try to impose theory onto practice by force fail, usually with a bloodbath and much unnecessary suffering in between. Reality ALWAYS trumps theory!

You want to control what users can and cannot do, and I want users to be free! I'm fighting for freedom, you are fighting for oppression LOL LOL :P :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 am 
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winstep wrote:

Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?


i think as it is is good enough. i tested it with a folder of 600+ icons and it performed reasonably well


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:29 am 
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seeker wrote:
winstep wrote:

Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?


i think as it is is good enough. i tested it with a folder of 600+ icons and it performed reasonably well

Its fine Jorge only thing I have bother with is "Network Connections".

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:19 am 
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Quote:
Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?


Totally. Most people have at least 16GB RAM nowadays. I have 64GB and no swap file.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Quote:
Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?


seeker wrote:
i think as it is is good enough. i tested it with a folder of 600+ icons and it performed reasonably well


sacco_belmonte wrote:
Totally. Most people have at least 16GB RAM nowadays. I have 64GB and no swap file.


Well, reasonably well and good enough are not 'optimum', so I have to agree with sacco_belmonte here.

Before I had even read his reply I was already changing the local caches into a global unified icon caching mechanism. This allows all Shelves, Drawers and Grid Stack to use the same application global cache, while before the cache was local to each object and therefore destroyed when the object was closed (not a problem for Shelves and Drawers which were normally always open, huge problem for Grid Stacks which constantly open and then close).

So now the icon cache for Grid Stacks survives the Stack itself being closed.

Obviously, if you change the type of the Grid Stack or even delete it, the associated cached icons are all destroyed, so hopefully no memory leaks here (or even using more memory than necessary).

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:00 pm 
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i for one only have 8 gigs of memory and a lot of peeps are still using much older systems, if possible maybe make caching an enduser option.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:13 pm 
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MrGrim wrote:
i for one only have 8 gigs of memory and a lot of peeps are still using much older systems, if possible maybe make caching an enduser option.


There are already a TON of memory usage vs. speed settings in Preferences -> Advanced -> Performance Settings. If you click Advanced you can already disable the global shelf icon cache (which is what we are referring to above).

I do not advise anyone to do so, unless their system has only 2GB of RAM or less... and even then, your browser showing a *blank page* will probably use more memory than a fully loaded Winstep application.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Windy wrote:
That sounds like this correct? If so, I'm all in!!

"So, imagine when the single-tab Shelf is bumped, it opens like the Grid Stack does, without the icon row limitations, and collapses back to whatever the docked size/Scale is set to."


winstep wrote:
NO IT DOES NOT!!! Windy, you are confusing everything, scaling settings with collapsing sizes, folder related features in folder type tabs with (somehow!) Grid Stacks and Shelves, etc..! Please stop. lol


So what exactly is the proposed setting for?

winstep wrote:
1. Create the single tabbed Shelf.
2. In the Shelf Properties dialog go to Appearance tab -> More Options
3. Set 'How many rows of icons would you like the shelf to display when open?' to however many icon rows you want the Shelf to display when open. If you want it to fill the whole screen, set that number to 99 or whatever.

Drawers will not and are NOT meant to behave like Grid Stacks by suddenly sprouting multi-rows of icons. Drawers are single row, single tabbed. End of discussion. :P


Other than the single-tab Shelf scrolling horizontally unlike the Grid Stack which scrolls vertically, it works just I as I want! :D :D :D :D :D :D When did you put that feature in? Was it the beta that I installed a couple of days ago?

winstep wrote:
I also already told you what to do if you want to make a single tabbed Shelf expand to more than one row of icons:

I don't remember you telling me that, at least not in clear cut directions as you did now. Don't tell me that this was there all along!! If so, we had a serious communication problem! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm glad you hung in there with me through this whole thing and we finally sorted it out. :)


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:14 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Also, nobody gave me an opinion yet on this question: should I cache Grid Stacks icons in memory after opening them for the first time (just in case you open them again) or the performance is good enough as it is and this doesn't seem necessary?

Contrary to what you state in a post further along Jorge, I have to agree with the majority that caching icons for GridStacks seems unnecessary. Win 10 itself seems to leek memory left, right, and centre, plus web browsers especially, and 8 MB can shrink very quickly. I have 8 MB on the laptop, and 5MB on the AMD X2 system (I could have more but it then only takes slower memory). Sure, some time next year I may get a 64 MB 8-core Threadripper system, all working out fine, but that's neither here nor there as the present systems will remain and will remain with relatively small memory.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
But, take it down one size, and you can't really see anything properly and at 16 px it's just a blot anyway.

Ric, all you are doing is proving me right. As I pointed out many times before, iconic modules ARE NOT SUITABLE for free form skinning precisely because of this reason, and never will be.

Jorge, you're reading this the way you want to see it (and quoting out of context), not the way it is. ;) All I'm saying is first of all that the time only in-shelf/-dock digital clock is in any case practically useless below 48 px icon size. Secondly, I'm just advocating setting a new default with the date (in short date format and a slightly smaller font), as there is ample space for it if the time wasn't centred, and with a better, clearer font. Even Arial would be better than that ghastly, blurry LCD matrix affair. (This btw. is also very irritating in the alarm.)
And finally, maybe, ideally, skinners could change the font on a per theme basis (which the user could always change back to the default.) Oh and btw. I have used this same said in-shelf/-dock digital clock in a theme where an analogue one would have looked totally out of place. :) (Screen grab coming up in a separate post.)

As for free-form skinning of iconified modules - as I said before, still don't see what's so wrong/bad about it - users can always either revert to default or choose another theme. Hey, guess what - we have it already for the recycler module. ;)

But free-form isn't even the issue in this case, just a better default on which to build. :)
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
So why worry about people who are daft enough to abuse this by using 16 px icons where they should never be used in the first place?

See? This perfectly illustrates the difference between theory and practice. In theory they shouldn't, in practice they do. All systems - without exception - that try to impose theory onto practice by force fail, usually with a bloodbath and much unnecessary suffering in between. Reality ALWAYS trumps theory!

Sure they do. If one lets them. If they can't do it in the first place, they'll never miss it. Of course, once given the 'freedom' it can be very tricky to then take it away. And yes, I could even see taking away the option of 16 px icons everywhere except where they're meant to be causing a bloodbath among those foolish enough to use them elsewhere. Microsoft doesn't give that choice in the first place. :)
winstep wrote:
You want to control what users can and cannot do, and I want users to be free! I'm fighting for freedom, you are fighting for oppression LOL LOL :P :wink:

LOLOL! Ballcocks, Jorge! ;) Freedom is a much abused word. It's one of the things that's f***ed up this society in the first place - the 'freedom' of the individual placed above the well-being of the community and the society as a whole.

Users need constraints to some extent in the context of any programme. I'm just advocating sensible, simple common-sense constraints (and that includes, btw., the constraint not to infringe the skinner's copyright!) on how themes are presented to and used by the user. Users still have the choice not to use a given theme if they don't like the constraints it presents, and to choose another theme instead. Simple. :P

Oh, and these issues still remain to be cleared up Jorge.

1) WRT GridStacks, it should be possible - at least in theory - to have a GS icon in a shelf say and then have a QL Hotspot pointing to this? But would the GS then open relative to the original icon, or to the hotspot?

2) What lines do I have to use in the config file to save the in-shelf/-dock etc. histo colour to the theme?

3) What lines do I have to use in the config file to save the icon frames/grid colours to the theme?

MTIA, Jorge. :)

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Vorlon Ambassador Kosh "In Fire"

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:33 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Contrary to what you state in a post further along Jorge, I have to agree with the majority that caching icons for GridStacks seems unnecessary.


Err, there is only a majority now that you stated your opinion - and even then it's a majority of two lol.

Either way, mute point now, I already implemented the global icon cache system.

The only reason I hadn't done it yet is because that meant changing how icon caching worked within the shelves themselves, but in truth I was dying to pull the trigger.

Once I figured out in my head - after asking the question here - how it could be done (move all the localized caches to a single global cache) I wasted no time implementing that solution.

If you think about it, makes all the sense in the word: GStacks are no different than tabs in Shelves. The icons in a Shelf tab do not get cached until you actually open the tab. So, if this is the way it works with the tabs in your Shelf, there is no reason in the world why it shouldn't also work that way with GStacks.

Plus, there actually is a huge difference in performance between opening a cached GStack and a non cached GStack (and image thumbnails already appear rendered the second time around).

nexter wrote:
Win 10 itself seems to leek memory left, right, and centre, plus web browsers especially, and 8 MB can shrink very quickly.


You need to understand that the amount of memory we are talking about here is pretty much negligible in the grand scheme of things. The only time memory usage might get truly serious is when you start using animated icons, as those can be HUGE and MUST be cached in memory at all times for performance reasons.

Besides, you can always turn off caching for Shelves, Drawers and Grid Stacks, as I explained above. :)

nexter wrote:
1) WRT GridStacks, it should be possible - at least in theory - to have a GS icon in a shelf say and then have a QL Hotspot pointing to this? But would the GS then open relative to the original icon, or to the hotspot?


I don't know yet if that is a good idea, still have to think about it. Anyway, in either case it would open relative to the hotspot.

nexter wrote:
2) What lines do I have to use in the config file to save the in-shelf/-dock etc. histo colour to the theme?


Sigh. Those are defined in the configuration files of the modules themselves:

GraphColor

nexter wrote:
3) What lines do I have to use in the config file to save the icon frames/grid colours to the theme?


ActiveFrameColor1
ActiveFrameColor2

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:32 pm 
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WARNING!!!!!!! DATA LOSS!!!!!

Do NOT try to move or copy via drag & drop an existing Grid Stack to a Shelf, another Grid Stack or a Drawer. Do NOT try move a Grid Stack in a Shelf, another Grid Stack or a Drawer into another position or tab.

You'll regret it deeply, trust me.

And while you are at it, make a backup of your settings NOW (Preferences -> Advanced tab -> Backup).

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:04 pm 
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seeker wrote:
how about gstack being a standalone feature like a dock or drawer, not just sub-stack from shelf/dock/drawer?


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:28 pm 
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I finally got around to installing the beta (the second one).
Naturally I`ve jumped to the new grid.
Things seem to work ok. Got some trouble when first made a folder grid inside a grid that was in a dock. When I was changing it from the default C:/ to the Music folder I got some crashes. Now is working well.

I still get some crashes from time to time with a non recoverable error and also I get some silent crashes from the workshelf (it just disappears). I suspect the problem is related to the drag and drop bug. I will try to figure things out, to see if the problem is elsewhere.

I still have the problem with the playlist and is a strange one: no special characters in the file name (change to numbers just to be on the safe side), deleted the ID3 tags, downloaded the files again. They are coded the same way, work in other players, the playlist is generated correctly, but the same files gets skipped on playing. Guess is something codec related... Don`t know how the Winstep MPlayer uses the system codecs.

Other than what was already found, I have nothing new.

Again Jorge, you did a great job! I already know that grids will replace my subdocks.

Question: Does it makes sense to you to have the icon that opens the grid also be usable as a shortcut? (in the way a shortcut icon can have a nested subdock).


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.10?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:30 pm 
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seeker wrote:
seeker wrote:
how about gstack being a standalone feature like a dock or drawer, not just sub-stack from shelf/dock/drawer?


Wouldn't that be exactly the same as a single tabbed Shelf set to show a fixed number of icon rows?

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