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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Really neat! Now all we need is the same for NeXus and NextSTART.... ;)


For Nexus docks all you need to do is increase the icon size.

Of course! Brain's not in gear.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Well, I have done my bit of digging around with Workshelf advanced skinning and updated all of my current half dozen or so themes under advanced development, to the current five bitmap format - worked like a charm too, thanks again Jorge.

One thing though still leaves me completely befuddled, bemused and bewildered. Way back, the shelf used 64x64 pixel bitmaps for the (original NeXT) recycler - and I've still got the screen grabs (there are other examples in a few old themes out there) showing it correctly displayed, i.e., not reduced to 48 pixels (assuming WS is set for 48x48 icons). But this does no longer work as expected - the recycler is reduced to 48x48 by WS for the in-shelf (and in-dock) recycler.

As you're busy buried in WS code atm, any idea why this changed Jorge? (I think the same also applied to the in-shelf clock mod, as all my old in-shelf clocks - both analogue and digital - are 64x64 pixels as well.)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:15 pm 
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It changed because it was an exception that caused a LOT of problems and made it necessary to keep adding code to work around the fact that the Recycler icon was larger than the rest of the icons. Anything that manipulated dock or Shelf icons (such as effects, etc...) had to take this into account. A bloody nightmare.

So, when I had the old NeXT recycler icon 'modernized', I got rid of the exception as well and made the Recycler icon the same size as all the others. And what a relief it was! lol

Also, you have to keep in mind that very few people these days even remember or know what NeXT was. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:38 pm 
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winstep wrote:
It changed because it was an exception that caused a LOT of problems and made it necessary to keep adding code to work around the fact that the Recycler icon was larger than the rest of the icons. Anything that manipulated dock or Shelf icons (such as effects, etc...) had to take this into account. A bloody nightmare.

Oh bugger, yes, I can imagine! Thanks for that explanation. And the solution makes perfect sense, pity though it is as I like/d the old recycler.
winstep wrote:
So, when I had the old NeXT recycler icon 'modernized', I got rid of the exception as well and made the Recycler icon the same size as all the others. And what a relief it was! lol

LOL! I bet. Though I think that default recycler looks rather ugly to my aesthetic sense, I must confess. But then, we can always roll our own, and indeed do. :) And perhaps it's time to move on to completely different things. (And not another bin either, LOL!)
winstep wrote:
Also, you have to keep in mind that very few people these days even remember or know what NeXT was. :wink:

Alas, indeed. Most 'Dark Side' users even are blithely unaware that they are sitting on it, albeit in pretty crippled form and made to look Mac-like. In a similar fashion, BeOS and QNX, among others, are just as forgotten (even though the latter is still very much alive, just not in the desktop arena). None of the several open source Be-clones ever seem to have amounted to anything really, either.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:48 am 
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Ok, the multiple Shelves thing is basically done, only a couple of lose ends left to tie.

Now on to implement vertical shelves - that is probably going to be another small nightmare.

If you guys would like to try what's done so far (even though you can't make Shelves vertical yet you can place them on different monitors and/or play with the new scaling settings) let me know and I'll make a private beta which you will be able to download from here.

This would be one of very few times where I would strongly advise you to back up your settings before installing the private beta, though - there were just way too many changes to the code for some hidden bug(s) not to be lurking somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:38 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Ok, the multiple Shelves thing is basically done, only a couple of lose ends left to tie.

Whoopee - congrats Jorge!
winstep wrote:
Now on to implement vertical shelves - that is probably going to be another small nightmare.

Aww.... Well, as long as it's not a big one. :)
winstep wrote:
If you guys would like to try what's done so far (even though you can't make Shelves vertical yet you can place them on different monitors and/or play with the new scaling settings) let me know and I'll make a private beta which you will be able to download from here.

This would be one of very few times where I would strongly advise you to back up your settings before installing the private beta, though - there were just way too many changes to the code for some hidden bug(s) not to be lurking somewhere.

I'm definitely up for it after today. And I always, always backup not just NS and WS but also the registry settings after any change/s that I make here. Belts and braces. ;)

Oh my, aren't things lively in here though? :( Granted, it's summer in the northern hemisphere and all that, but still.... Well, it's also the usual thing - folks are quick to come forward when they experience a bug/problem/whatever, but heck, a bit of cheering when things go well at least wouldn't hurt, surely....

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Need your opinion ASAP on something, guys, since I'm doing these changes now.

As you know, you can decide where the tabs on the Shelf are placed, if at the bottom of the Shelf or at the top.

If the Shelf is docked at the top, it makes more sense for the tabs to be at the bottom of the Shelf, since it will slide down when expanding. Likewise, if the Shelf is docked at the bottom, it makes more sense for the tabs to be at the top of the Shelf, since it will slide up when expanding.

When you switch the screen edge the Shelf is docked to, the position of the tabs is automatically adjusted to whatever is the most appropriate for that screen edge (bottom of the Shelf if docked at top, top of the Shelf if docked at bottom).

This is a bit confusing (even for me) because the actual setting in the Shelf Properties dialog is NOT relative but absolute: it allows you to choose 'Tabs at Bottom' or 'Tabs at top', regardless of where the Shelf currently is on the screen.

I'm thinking it would perhaps be better to change this to an on/off 'Invert Tabs' option which would be relative to the Shelf's current position on the screen.

So, for instance, in the case of a *floating* Shelf, if the Shelf is in the top half of the screen and invert tabs is OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the bottom of the Shelf. Likewise, if you move the Shelf to the bottom half of the screen and invert tabs remains OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the top of the Shelf.

This is a bit like what already happens with docks: for instance, if a floating dock is somewhere at the top half of the screen, then the icons magnify down. Move it to the lower half, however, and the icons start magnifying UP. Likewise for the orientation of the dock's background/skin.

I think handling it like this makes more sense than the current approach. What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
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thats great Jorge. ill interested in beta, if nothing else maybe ill stumble onto some weird bug again.

invert tabs setting makes sense imo


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:04 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Oh my, aren't things lively in here though? :( Granted, it's summer in the northern hemisphere and all that, but still.... Well, it's also the usual thing - folks are quick to come forward when they experience a bug/problem/whatever, but heck, a bit of cheering when things go well at least wouldn't hurt, surely....


Yeah, tell me about it. I think it's the same everywhere, people just don't seem to engage nearly as much as they used to.

Once the software does what they need, most stop engaging. They read but they don't participate, which is a pity since feedback (both good AND bad) is crucial for me.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm 
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seeker wrote:
invert tabs setting makes sense imo


Thanks. It also prevents me from having to add 'Tabs at the Left of the Shelf' and 'Tabs at the Right of the Shelf' options for vertical shelves lol

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Hmm, yes.... and, no. In a general sense, it makes eminent good sense Jorge. In the case of a free-floating shelf, I'm not so sure. To my way of thinking, even if the latter is in the top half of the screen, tabs at the top still seem more logical. Only in docked positions (i.e., top or bottom) is it 100% the logical choice.

How would this impact vertical shelves anyway? Now there's a different kind of beastie. Here automatic inversion according to which half of the screen a free-floating vertical shelf is in would definitely make perfect sense. (I.e., if a V shelf started out in the left half but then was moved to the right, its tabs should be inverted to those of a shelf docked on the right.)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:20 pm 
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winstep wrote:
.... Yeah, tell me about it. I think it's the same everywhere, people just don't seem to engage nearly as much as they used to.

Once the software does what they need, most stop engaging. They read but they don't participate, which is a pity since feedback (both good AND bad) is crucial for me.

Alas, indeed. Too many distractions these days - people having their noses in their damn 'smartphones' morning, noon and night - and the last thing they use them for is, to talk as with a normal phone! It's anti-social media and messaging all the way, mustn't miss photo No.1011 by XYZ and must 'like' this crap and that...... Argh!

I'd hate to be in the position of a developer with a real bright idea today - what chance it ever becoming a real success with little or perhaps even no feedback, good, bad, or ugly even?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:07 pm 
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nexter wrote:
How would this impact vertical shelves anyway? Now there's a different kind of beastie. Here automatic inversion according to which half of the screen a free-floating vertical shelf is in would definitely make perfect sense. (I.e., if a V shelf started out in the left half but then was moved to the right, its tabs should be inverted to those of a shelf docked on the right.)


Eheh. If you apply the same reasoning to horizontal shelves you will get to the same conclusion. :)

nexter wrote:
I'd hate to be in the position of a developer with a real bright idea today - what chance it ever becoming a real success with little or perhaps even no feedback, good, bad, or ugly even?


Remember how a few years ago you used to have lots of websites/people making software reviews? Where are they now? Other than games and major OS updates, I don't think anyone else is writing about/reviewing software anymore.

Which kind of raises the question: is it because people are no longer interested in reading/learning about utility software or did it simply become a vacant spot waiting for someone to fill it?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:02 pm 
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DOH! Bug in v18.5: deleting an item from the Shelf with auto-hide enabled results in the Shelf collapsing while the delete animation is still playing and then popping up as if it was expanded (but isn't).

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:57 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
How would this impact vertical shelves anyway? Now there's a different kind of beastie. Here automatic inversion according to which half of the screen a free-floating vertical shelf is in would definitely make perfect sense. (I.e., if a V shelf started out in the left half but then was moved to the right, its tabs should be inverted to those of a shelf docked on the right.)

Eheh. If you apply the same reasoning to horizontal shelves you will get to the same conclusion. :)

Well, yyes.... and, nno.... Slightly different scenario. But in the end, it doesn't really matter so much if it keeps things simpler - we can always change it just the way we want it, i.e., tabs at the top if we want even in the top half of the screen. :)
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
I'd hate to be in the position of a developer with a real bright idea today - what chance it ever becoming a real success with little or perhaps even no feedback, good, bad, or ugly even?

Remember how a few years ago you used to have lots of websites/people making software reviews? Where are they now? Other than games and major OS updates, I don't think anyone else is writing about/reviewing software anymore.

Which kind of raises the question: is it because people are no longer interested in reading/learning about utility software or did it simply become a vacant spot waiting for someone to fill it?

Even ten years ago it was still a very different scene. I think part of it at least also has to be a shift in what used to be the more involved computer users' interests/foci and habits. For many of these, the focus is now firmly on games only, and for many others, (dumb-)smartphones and tablets have pretty much replaced computers and even laptops. This of course severely limits the scope for any kind of normal utility software - it's the ultimate KISS, click here, click there, slide this, click, don't think! Computers and even laptops are well on their way to becoming rarities in the average domestic setting. Heck, even in the average work/office environment we'll likely see a big shift back to what will be little more than 'terminals' for web browsers as the mad headlong rush into the cloud continues....

And never mind how insecure it all has already proven to be! And then techno idiots want people to believe that autonomous vehicles are/will be safe, etc. etc. Hell, I don't trust any of this tech anymore. I wouldn't have any so-called 'smart' devices/gadgets in my home. If 'smart' TVs are going to be all that's available next time I need a new one, I'll sooner do without. Not that there's much worth watching these days anyway.

Sorry about that rant. :) But it's all connected, of course....

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