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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:31 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
The private beta no longer necessary, I take it?

Perhaps not, we'll see how it goes.

Well, I should be able to take part if/when needed.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
By the bye, as the vertical shelves will simply rotate a horizontal bottom shelf, do I take it there's no additional skinning involved then?

Yep, no additional skinning required. Purists won't like that much, of course. :wink:

Oh dear, how sad. ;) Yet, when I look at docks, I see quite a few that just use the same bitmap for all orientations and use auto-rotate. OTOH, in at least one theme so far, I'm even using quite radically different bitmaps for different dock orientations (well, two anyway). Might do something similar for inverted shelves sometime. :)

Past my bed time already. And still haven't been able to solve the probs re: custom anim for desktop recycler mod, nor for non-animated desktop recycler. :(

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Jorge: So, imagine a theme like KTEK-4D: the theme is absolutely gorgeous (one of the best, in my opinion) but it was made when the most common screen resolution was still 1024x768 (or even 800x600). As a result everything is pretty tiny, font sizes included, which can make the Shelf hard to use on today's big screen resolutions.

Do I need to re-download this or wait for the update to make these adjustments? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Gregory2001 wrote:
Jorge: So, imagine a theme like KTEK-4D: the theme is absolutely gorgeous (one of the best, in my opinion) but it was made when the most common screen resolution was still 1024x768 (or even 800x600). As a result everything is pretty tiny, font sizes included, which can make the Shelf hard to use on today's big screen resolutions.

Do I need to re-download this or wait for the update to make these adjustments? Thanks.

You could simply go to Workshelf Preferences -> Themes panel, and click on Fonts. Now you can adjust all the font sizes you want within the shelf etc. (tricky though with modules - best use scaling there), and even the font type etc. Or of course you could wait for 18.7 and the shelf will be scalable as well. :)

A much bigger problem is the font size in the NextSTART menu - it's horrendously small even at as 'small' a res as 1366x768, let alone on my CRT at 1200x1600. Scalability there would be really fab.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:27 am 
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Sigh. There are some features in the Shelf that in retrospect I wish I had never added in the first place, all they do is complicate things tremendously, and I bet nobody actually uses them: the Shelf base and intercalated icon labels.

They sounded like good ideas at the time, but now...

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:03 am 
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winstep wrote:
Sigh. There are some features in the Shelf that in retrospect I wish I had never added in the first place, all they do is complicate things tremendously, and I bet nobody actually uses them: the Shelf base and intercalated icon labels.

They sounded like good ideas at the time, but now...

Yep, guilty as charged your honour. ;) Never used them, apart from for testing in the earliest days. Ah yes, the wonderful hindsight again, eh Jorge? :) Never mind. VB also seemed like a brill thing - and so said someone I knew who used to code in machine and assembly! And look what MS has done with it. Err, yes, pretty much bugger all in over twenty years. I bet in hindsight you wish you'd picked another language, like C++? (I could never wrap my head around that and the IDE. Seemed ghastly.)

Anyway, so get rid of them - unless that would open another can of worms and break a whole lot of other things, of course. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:48 am 
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nexter wrote:
I bet in hindsight you wish you'd picked another language, like C++?


Hindsight is indeed 20/20 vision. I started all this because me and John wanted to make NeXT style menus in PowerPro (remember that?) and PowerPro only allowed you to 'skin' the main menu - sub-menus always popped up showing the default Win98 style.

So the quickest and dirtiest way for me to add something like that was to do it in VB. The hotspots idea was also born right then because we needed a way to activate our NeXT style menus by clicking on a PowerPro menu button.

And that was how what would eventually become NextSTART first saw the light of day: as an extension to PowerPro. It took off from there and, of course, if I had *any idea* what was going to happen next I would have used C++ instead of classic VB.

nexter wrote:
Anyway, so get rid of them - unless that would open another can of worms and break a whole lot of other things, of course. :)


No, it's just that I really don't like to remove features that someone out there might actually be using: I can't recall ever having done that. Of course, if I could know for sure nobody is using intercalated labels I would remove that option in a heartbeat.

In the mean time, still slowly plodding through it, adding this stuff without completely breaking what is already there is complicated and time consuming. So I have been simplifying the Shelf related code as much as possible, prepping it for the big change.

One particular thing I'm currently having a hard time deciding on is the position of the scroll buttons for vertical shelves. Should scroll buttons always be on the right side of the shelf (so they would be between the icons and the tab headers for a shelf docked to the left screen edge but after the icons for a shelf docked to the right screen edge), or should they always be closer to the screen edge (so the scroll buttons are never between the icons and the tabs) ?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:21 am 
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winstep wrote:
One particular thing I'm currently having a hard time deciding on is the position of the scroll buttons for vertical shelves. Should scroll buttons always be on the right side of the shelf (so they would be between the icons and the tab headers for a shelf docked to the left screen edge but after the icons for a shelf docked to the right screen edge), or should they always be closer to the screen edge (so the scroll buttons are never between the icons and the tabs) ?


Doh.

A much better solution is to show them at the bottom of the Shelf, i.e.; below the icons.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
I bet in hindsight you wish you'd picked another language, like C++?

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 vision. I started all this because me and John wanted to make NeXT style menus in PowerPro (remember that?) and PowerPro only allowed you to 'skin' the main menu - sub-menus always popped up showing the default Win98 style.

..... And that was how what would eventually become NextSTART first saw the light of day: as an extension to PowerPro. It took off from there and, of course, if I had *any idea* what was going to happen next I would have used C++ instead of classic VB.

I do indeed remember it all very well. But at that point it really was impossible to foresee just where it all would lead. And VB at that point (and for what was originally intended) did look perfect for the job. It still would be a very attractive way of doing things if MS had developed it further, kept it up to date with MT etc. etc. Now we're stuck with it, porting would be just a complete nightmare at this point. Never mind though Jorge, you are doing a fantastic job of everything. An amazing one really, my friend.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Anyway, so get rid of them - unless that would open another can of worms and break a whole lot of other things, of course. :)

No, it's just that I really don't like to remove features that someone out there might actually be using: I can't recall ever having done that. Of course, if I could know for sure nobody is using intercalated labels I would remove that option in a heartbeat.

Ah, was about to post again on that. I've discovered that there are still some old themes (some still on Wincustomize, ISTR) that use the shelf base. Even so, I reckon they don't really need it to function, both literally and cosmetically. As for the intercalated labels- can't say I've ever come across them in any theme.
winstep wrote:
In the mean time, still slowly plodding through it, adding this stuff without completely breaking what is already there is complicated and time consuming. So I have been simplifying the Shelf related code as much as possible, prepping it for the big change.

I can well imagine what a lot of sweat-inducing hard work all that must be. But, while we're on the topic of the shelf, is there any chance we could ever have proper bitmap skinnable overlapping tabs? I'm not talking about now, but at some point? I know it would be very complicated, and perhaps too complicated. As an alternative, could we perhaps have say two or three different fixed styles of overlap, with bitmaps for the background of the tabs? In other words, like the current two styles but just the shape of the overlapping tabs and skinners provide active and inactive bitmaps for the 'fill' background, while the body is fully skinnable with WsFullBody.* ? (There really aren't more than two or three feasible styles of overlap for tabs anyway.) Then again, perhaps that would be just as complicated to do, and what the hell do I know? :) )
winstep wrote:
One particular thing I'm currently having a hard time deciding on is the position of the scroll buttons for vertical shelves. Should scroll buttons always be on the right side of the shelf (so they would be between the icons and the tab headers for a shelf docked to the left screen edge but after the icons for a shelf docked to the right screen edge), or should they always be closer to the screen edge (so the scroll buttons are never between the icons and the tabs) ?

Doh.

A much better solution is to show them at the bottom of the Shelf, i.e.; below the icons.


Yep, totally agree. Perhaps though have the (now left and right) arrows side by side instead on one above the other? In other words, just turning the whole arrow thing sideways with the shelf?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Quote:
PowerPro (remember that?)

Remember it! I still use it today.
(although, mostly for hot keys, macros and menus)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:47 am 
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Nearly there: :)

Image

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:33 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Nearly there: :)

Image

Yep. Very nice, too. :) (If one horribly over-full shelf. ;) )

I take it though that the separators are still optional?

Don't know if you saw my comments/queries re: overlapping tabs just a couple of posts back in this thread. Any of that at all possible at some future point perhaps Jorge?

And, what do I have to do to get Workshelf to actually see the inverted bitmaps? Would be grateful for any hints. MTIA.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:28 am 
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Time upon a once (or something like that), I used to write software manuals. My only comment on that gorgeous, scrumptious screenshot is me envisioning writing this feature thusly:
Quote:
You may orient your shelf horizontally or vertically by opening the Workshelf preferences, clicking the Position tab and, under the Position section, selecting the "Position in which orientation?" option.

If that doesn't register as awkward, I can make it more obvious:
Quote:
You may orient your shelf horizontally or vertically by opening the Workshelf preferences and making a selection under the "Position in which orientation?" option found in the Position section of the Position tab.

Have I sufficiently positioned my verbiage? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:21 pm 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
Time upon a once (or something like that), I used to write software manuals. My only comment on that gorgeous, scrumptious screenshot is me envisioning writing this feature thusly:
Quote:
You may orient your shelf horizontally or vertically by opening the Workshelf preferences, clicking the Position tab and, under the Position section, selecting the "Position in which orientation?" option.

If that doesn't register as awkward, I can make it more obvious:
Quote:
You may orient your shelf horizontally or vertically by opening the Workshelf preferences and making a selection under the "Position in which orientation?" option found in the Position section of the Position tab.

Have I sufficiently positioned my verbiage? :wink:

Very eloquently indeed, Ric. :)

However, all that jargon would probably confuse the hell out of many if not most - brill! ;) After all, why put things plainly and simply when one can make it complicated. I'm a firm believer in that. :P

How about :

"You can position your shelf horizontally or vertically by right-clicking the shelf Preferences icon and selecting the 'Shelf Properties' option from the context menu. Click on the 'Position' tab and select the position from the options available there.'

(Aka 'Shelf Orientation For Dummies'. ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Almost, almost there.

nexter wrote:
Yep. Very nice, too. :) (If one horribly over-full shelf. ;) )


Oh, that's just a Shelf in the IDE for me to test all sorts of things. As you can probably imagine, almost everything related to the Shelf needs to be retested after such massive changes to the code.

nexter wrote:
I take it though that the separators are still optional?


You mean the icon grid? Yes, of course.

nexter wrote:
Don't know if you saw my comments/queries re: overlapping tabs just a couple of posts back in this thread. Any of that at all possible at some future point perhaps Jorge?

And, what do I have to do to get Workshelf to actually see the inverted bitmaps? Would be grateful for any hints. MTIA.


Remind me again once I've got this working please.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:36 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Almost, almost there.

Amazing effort really. I'm in awe. Beta sometime?
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Yep. Very nice, too. :) (If one horribly over-full shelf. ;) )

Oh, that's just a Shelf in the IDE for me to test all sorts of things. As you can probably imagine, almost everything related to the Shelf needs to be retested after such massive changes to the code.

Yeah, 's what I figured. My shelf, docks and menus are a bit like that in theme development.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
I take it though that the separators are still optional?

You mean the icon grid? Yes, of course.

Yep. Although with all those icons that actually makes practical sense.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Don't know if you saw my comments/queries re: overlapping tabs just a couple of posts back in this thread. Any of that at all possible at some future point perhaps Jorge?

And, what do I have to do to get Workshelf to actually see the inverted bitmaps? Would be grateful for any hints. MTIA.

Remind me again once I've got this working please.


Thanks, will do Jorge. Figured you're totally immersed in this at the moment (and probably burning the candle at both ends!), especially seeing the rarity of your posts lately. :)

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