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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:35 pm 
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Posts: 173
Nexter wrote:
Time has moved on, it really is time to look at different paradigms and metaphors.

My thinking would be an easily portable 64-bit app that provides the user with a simple, easy to use and fully configurable desktop environment/user interface that combines some of the elements of Winstep (but in a completely new form) and adds in some new elements.


We started out on the windows side, but end up talking on the linux side, but one thing I get from this is that the whatever it is 64-bit.


So we want to go for some off Winstep's elements. I hope that's cool with Jorge? But in a new way/form, with some new elements. Like?



Nexter wrote:
By portable, I mean that it could be made available for Windows, Windows tablets, Android tablets, and perhaps Mac. This could easily be achieved by making it open source but with commercial/proprietary restrictions and bringing in volunteer developers to be paid through donations/sponsorship.

Here we go back to Windows/Android.
We wondered away from Windows again to Linux, I suppose to develop for both, is easy enough, in my minds eye.
If OS=winblows then
{win code}
Else Linux then........
The difference?



Nexter wrote:
I've not spoken of a Linux port yet, because for Linux, the core of this would need to be expanded into a full Linux desktop environment and preferably even provide its own window manager. And that would definitely require a team of dedicated open source developers. But then, things seem to increasingly be moving towards a hybrid open source - proprietary model, often funded through sponsorship and/or donations as well as sales.

Well we have to decide if this is a Linux/Windows/Android project or involve all.
I like the idea of being supported by donations and sponsorship, although when I think on it going down the sponsorship route I don't like the idea off inserting names into things, perhaps having a credits box or something.
Sales I don't know if we could that kinda goes against the grain, I suppose we could design the desktop(for want of a better word), then charge for a dock or some other wiz bang item on top.

Nexter wrote:
Ultimately, my ideas spring out of one of my kind of (old in origin, about 20 yrs ago, extended/revised a good 10 yrs ago) 'thought experiments' - envisioning a whole new OS that would be scalable to anything and offer the greatest possible security and privacy.
Projects like WHOnix and QubeOS show some aspects of this, to a limited extend.


The OS I envisioned would make extensive use of machine learning (I hate to use the term 'AI' because at present - and no doubt for a very long time to come - it is a complete misnomer, Artificial Stupidity would come closer, IMO) throughout, and the installer would automatically identify the processor type and other hardware, and initially install just the kernel and hypervisor with basic control centre and then - for servers, mainframes and desktops - give the option of installing the full OS, or any other OS/OSes, in a VM or VMs.

I have liked the idea of AI for a long time one that's coming to the for in some operations/styles although iam not in favor of inserting things just to make up the bulk of things just to make it look good. I think of searches I do with shopping and the results are never JUST what you asked for.



DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

I to would love to get Jorge involved how about it? Jorge?
We already have a new home (in mind Jorge sign you up?) Iam going over all the old stuff in the thread and trying to stir the pot. One thing tho DD(and others) get involved :o :shock: plz.

Nexter wrote:
Would be nice if we could have Jorge in on this. Although, I don't think there would be much that could be implemented in Winstep from this - it's too complex and needs multithreading.


Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for. To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.


Yes that is a good idea. I hope your well enough soon. If you included some graphics into it[different paradigms and metaphors] so much the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:04 am 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

oOsgearOo wrote:
I to would love to get Jorge involved how about it? Jorge?
We already have a new home (in mind Jorge sign you up?) Iam going over all the old stuff in the thread and trying to stir the pot. One thing tho DD(and others) get involved :o :shock: plz.

You in it for windows side, linux side or in general DDwarf?

By the way I know we are down but hopefully not for long fella's

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:14 pm 
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I recently installed Linux, but have not been using it very much, sadly. It's been a couple of weeks since I booted it. So, I would be a Windows user, primarily.


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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:19 pm 
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Sorry if this turns into a long one, but in the nature of the beast - a quasi-summary of what went before - it's unavoidable as all points have to be addressed, especially for any possible new readers. There certainly seems to be a fair amount of interest in this thread, looking at the viewing figures.
oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
Time has moved on, it really is time to look at different paradigms and metaphors.

My thinking would be an easily portable 64-bit app that provides the user with a simple, easy to use and fully configurable desktop environment/user interface that combines some of the elements of Winstep (but in a completely new form) and adds in some new elements.

We started out on the windows side, but end up talking on the linux side, but one thing I get from this is that the whatever it is 64-bit.

Indeed - what prompted this in the first place was thinking ahead and that Winstep Xtreme etc. may not have an unlimited lifespan and that perhaps a (eventual) replacement might be of interest here generally as well as specifically to Jorge.
We ended up talking Linux side because - esp. in the absence of any response from Jorge - both you Steve/oOSGearOo and I are pretty dedicated Linux users mostly, and because of the differences in code between Windows etc. and Linux - see further down for more on this.
oOSGearOo wrote:
So we want to go for some off Winstep's elements. I hope that's cool with Jorge? But in a new way/form, with some new elements. Like?

Well, it's not using any Winstep code so I don't see a problem there, and besides it's a very different thing. For more detail, I think it's better if we wait till I can edit/abbreviate/simplify/extract my architecture/design as mentioned before.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
By portable, I mean that it could be made available for Windows, Windows tablets, Android tablets, and perhaps Mac. This could easily be achieved by making it open source but with commercial/proprietary restrictions and bringing in volunteer developers to be paid through donations/sponsorship.

Here we go back to Windows/Android.
We wondered away from Windows again to Linux, I suppose to develop for both, is easy enough, in my minds eye.
If OS=winblows then
{win code}
Else Linux then........
The difference?

This is perhaps the main reason for talking Linux more than Windblows. ;-) (Gosh, long time since last I've seen/heard that expression!) The difference is, under Linux we have to develop a complete new Desktop Environment, for a variety of reasons, whereas Windows of course has a completely different structure to Linux and does not have a separate DE - Explorer is both window manger and DE rolled into one (and more). Hence, we cannot put a DE as such on top of it, and we certainly don't want to f*** with trying to replace Explorer - some have tried (e.g., Litestep) and failed miserably, and that was before Windows 7-10 came along. So, it will be far easier to initially develop a Linux version and then when that is pretty much done think Windows. A lot of the DE-specific code will have to be dropped out and/or modified for a Windows version, there's no way around that, and some code added. E.g.,for a start the "app" will - like Winstep - have to "hide" the Explorer desktop as completely as possible. It's far easier this way than the other way round, that is, starting with a Windows version and then moving to Linux.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
I've not spoken of a Linux port yet, because for Linux, the core of this would need to be expanded into a full Linux desktop environment and preferably even provide its own window manager. And that would definitely require a team of dedicated open source developers. But then, things seem to increasingly be moving towards a hybrid open source - proprietary model, often funded through sponsorship and/or donations as well as sales.

Well we have to decide if this is a Linux/Windows/Android project or involve all.
I like the idea of being supported by donations and sponsorship, although when I think on it going down the sponsorship route I don't like the idea off inserting names into things, perhaps having a credits box or something.
Sales I don't know if we could that kinda goes against the grain, I suppose we could design the desktop(for want of a better word), then charge for a dock or some other wiz bang item on top.

Initially, as and for the reasons outlined above, it will have to be a Linux project as I see it. (Where it's also needed much more.)

Sponsorship doesn't mean having to splash sponsors' names all over the place - there would be a separate page on a web site listing all the sponsors etc. Just about all - except commercial, i.e., paid for - Linux distros depend on sponsorship to a greater or lesser extent, plus often also donations. Have a look at some of the various distros' web site to see what I mean.

As for sales kinda going against the grain, well, not entirely. There are an increasing number of paid for Linux apps and even distros, in addition to the corporate/enterprise flavours such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and SUSE. (Pity RH - and Fedora - got there first with the name, otherwise I might have called this project after one of my own past or present hats!) All in all, I certainly wouldn't have any objection to going down the commercial route, but it may be wiser (esp. in order to attract developers) to stick to a free (of cost) Linux version for private users, but asking for a donation would be fine. Selling individual components additional to the basic thing wouldn't be feasible really, especially as everything will essentially be completely integrated.
oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
Ultimately, my ideas spring out of one of my kind of (old in origin, about 20 yrs ago, extended/revised a good 10 yrs ago) 'thought experiments' - envisioning a whole new OS that would be scalable to anything and offer the greatest possible security and privacy.
Projects like WHOnix and QubeOS show some aspects of this, to a limited extend.

The OS I envisioned would make extensive use of machine learning (I hate to use the term 'AI' because at present - and no doubt for a very long time to come - it is a complete misnomer, Artificial Stupidity would come closer, IMO) throughout, and the installer would automatically identify the processor type and other hardware, and initially install just the kernel and hypervisor with basic control centre and then - for servers, mainframes and desktops - give the option of installing the full OS, or any other OS/OSes, in a VM or VMs.

I have liked the idea of AI for a long time one that's coming to the for in some operations/styles although iam not in favor of inserting things just to make up the bulk of things just to make it look good. I think of searches I do with shopping and the results are never JUST what you asked for.

Well, like I said, the term 'AI' as used at present is a complete misnomer. machine (auto-)learning is more accurate to a limited degree, but Artificial Stupidity for the moment seems fine by me. :) That said, good algorithms have their uses but in everyday computing are far too rare. The kinds used by search engines, shopping sites etc. are next to useless. You may be looking for/at a simple sauce pan and the damn thing wants to sell you a mobile BBQ! :P And I agree with you, inserting things just to bulk things up to make it look good is certainly not desirable. No, the way I envisioned machine learning there is a very practical one - e.g., algorithms to observe the way things run/operations are carried out/messages passed etc. and to suggest how the code could be improved - made more efficient, leaner, etc. etc.
oOSGearOo wrote:
DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

I to would love to get Jorge involved how about it? Jorge?
We already have a new home (in mind Jorge sign you up?) Iam going over all the old stuff in the thread and trying to stir the pot. One thing tho DD(and others) get involved :o :shock: plz.

Agreed. Yes, please guys, and anybody else, get involved. Your input would be most welcome.
oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
Would be nice if we could have Jorge in on this. Although, I don't think there would be much that could be implemented in Winstep from this - it's too complex and needs multithreading.

As I said before, the thing is I would see a Windows etc. version as a successor to Winstep Xtreme, so I really would love for Jorge to be involved. Even though the basic code would have to be open source (with a BSD-like or even wholly proprietary license), Jorge could make the Windows version proprietary and commercial, with just an acknowledgement of the open source code portions used, any copyrights etc., and inclusion of its license.

So, how about it Jorge, let's have your thoughts.
oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for. To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.

Yes that is a good idea. I hope your well enough soon. If you included some graphics into it[different paradigms and metaphors] so much the better.

Yeah, shouldn't be too much longer. As for including some GFX, I obviously have a pretty clear idea what it would look like, so I'll try my best but it'll take additional time.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:32 pm 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
I recently installed Linux, but have not been using it very much, sadly. It's been a couple of weeks since I booted it. So, I would be a Windows user, primarily.

Hey, good to see you here again DD_Ric. :)

Well, even as a primary - or even sole - Windows user, your and anybody else's input is always welcome. Bear in mind that although for now we're primarily discussing a Linux version, in the end there will certainly be a Windows version, one way or another. (Unless Windows were to completely disappear from the desktop, of course - always a possibility I guess....) Have a look at my reply to Steve above to get a clearer idea.

Out of interest, which distro/flavour did you install? And multi-boot or in a VM?

- (AKA) N_Ric

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:22 am 
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nexter wrote:
Out of interest, which distro/flavour did you install? And multi-boot or in a VM?


Mint and as a multi-boot.


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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:28 am 
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Posts: 173
nexter wrote:
Indeed - what prompted this in the first place was thinking ahead and that Winstep Xtreme etc. may not have an unlimited lifespan and that perhaps a (eventual) replacement might be of interest here generally as well as specifically to Jorge.
We ended up talking Linux side because - esp. in the absence of any response from Jorge - both you Steve/oOSGearOo and I are pretty dedicated Linux users mostly, and because of the differences in code between Windows etc. and Linux - see further down for more on this.

yeah this being a windows based(so to speak) forum, given that all the other people here reading this are windows users. I just was trying to interest them and see if we could gain some fans. Lets face it so far 99% of this is you and me, as you say that's how it became Linux orientated. ok will pick this up latter on on the comment.

nexter wrote:
Well, it's not using any Winstep code so I don't see a problem there, and besides it's a very different thing. For more detail, I think it's better if we wait till I can edit/abbreviate/simplify/extract my architecture/design as mentioned before.


nexter wrote:
This is perhaps the main reason for talking Linux more than Windblows. ;-) (Gosh, long time since last I've seen/heard that expression!) The difference is, under Linux we have to develop a complete new Desktop Environment, for a variety of reasons, whereas Windows of course has a completely different structure to Linux and does not have a separate DE - Explorer is both window manger and DE rolled into one (and more). Hence, we cannot put a DE as such on top of it, and we certainly don't want to f*** with trying to replace Explorer - some have tried (e.g., Litestep) and failed miserably, and that was before Windows 7-10 came along. So, it will be far easier to initially develop a Linux version and then when that is pretty much done think Windows.
OK
Nexter wrote:
A lot of the DE-specific code will have to be dropped out and/or modified for a Windows version, there's no way around that, and some code added. E.g.,for a start the "app" will - like Winstep - have to "hide" the Explorer desktop as completely as possible. It's far easier this way than the other way round, that is, starting with a Windows version and then moving to Linux.
Yes I just think as stated above this being a windows forum,,,,,,,,,,
nexter wrote:
Initially, as and for the reasons outlined above, it will have to be a Linux project as I see it. (Where it's also needed much more.)

Sponsorship doesn't mean having to splash sponsors' names all over the place - there would be a separate page on a web site listing all the sponsors etc. Just about all - except commercial, i.e., paid for - Linux distros depend on sponsorship to a greater or lesser extent, plus often also donations. Have a look at some of the various distros' web site to see what I mean.

Crowd funded/Pateron here we go, heheh. Yeah ok part off the idea of the 'new home(web)'
that is still down or up in the air. Tech suport have it until monday when I get paid if not fixed by then, iam changing my hosting.
nexter wrote:
As for sales kinda going against the grain, well, not entirely. There are an increasing number of paid for Linux apps and even distros, in addition to the corporate/enterprise flavours such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and SUSE. (Pity RH - and Fedora - got there first with the name, otherwise I might have called this project after one of my own past or present hats!) All in all, I certainly wouldn't have any objection to going down the commercial route, but it may be wiser (esp. in order to attract developers) to stick to a free (of cost) Linux version for private users, but asking for a donation would be fine. Selling individual components additional to the basic thing wouldn't be feasible really, especially as everything will essentially be completely integrated.
Yes charging for it is an option
nexter wrote:

well, like I said, the term 'AI' as used at present is a complete misnomer. machine (auto-)learning is more accurate to a limited degree, but Artificial Stupidity for the moment seems fine by me. :) That said, good algorithms have their uses but in everyday computing are far too rare. The kinds used by search engines, shopping sites etc. are next to useless. You may be looking for/at a simple sauce pan and the damn thing wants to sell you a mobile BBQ! :P And I agree with you, inserting things just to bulk things up to make it look good is certainly not desirable. No, the way I envisioned machine learning there is a very practical one - e.g., algorithms to observe the way things run/operations are carried out/messages passed etc. and to suggest how the code could be improved - made more efficient, leaner, etc. etc.


Agreed. Yes, please guys, and anybody else, get involved. Your input would be most welcome.


As I said before, the thing is I would see a Windows etc. version as a successor to Winstep Xtreme, so I really would love for Jorge to be involved. Even though the basic code would have to be open source (with a BSD-like or even wholly proprietary license), Jorge could make the Windows version proprietary and commercial, with just an acknowledgement of the open source code portions used, any copyrights etc., and inclusion of its license.

So, how about it Jorge, let's have your thoughts.

Yeah, shouldn't be too much longer. As for including some GFX, I obviously have a pretty clear idea what it would look like, so I'll try my best but it'll take additional time.

Iam not a wiz with graphics, hence no logo on the old now down new home. I have taken the limirrty off inserting bold in your comments nRic hope you dont mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:23 pm 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
nexter wrote:
Out of interest, which distro/flavour did you install? And multi-boot or in a VM?


Mint and as a multi-boot.

Mint's a good starting point. Bit staid, arch conservative, and very good, friendly support forums. It's also a fork of a fork - forked off of Ubuntu, which in turn is forked off of Debian. There's also a 'test' version forked directly off of Debian, which they did in order to be prepared in case of Ubuntu ever vanishing (fat chance!) - had that running here for some time at one point. Now have Mint Cinnamon here on one machine but don't use it very much really, preferring Fedora and Debian.

One thing - Linux is a piece of cake to install alongside Windows (and macOS), but never try it the other way around - i.e., installing Windows after Linux. You'd have a hell of a time getting Linux back, if at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:02 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Indeed - what prompted this in the first place was thinking ahead and that Winstep Xtreme etc. may not have an unlimited lifespan and that perhaps a (eventual) replacement might be of interest here generally as well as specifically to Jorge.
We ended up talking Linux side because - esp. in the absence of any response from Jorge - both you Steve/oOSGearOo and I are pretty dedicated Linux users mostly, and because of the differences in code between Windows etc. and Linux - see further down for more on this.

yeah this being a windows based(so to speak) forum, given that all the other people here reading this are windows users. I just was trying to interest them and see if we could gain some fans. Lets face it so far 99% of this is you and me, as you say that's how it became Linux orientated. ok will pick this up latter on on the comment.

Well, there do seem to be the odd few Linux users popping by occasionally or lurking, but yes, we are in Windows land here basically. But we can always hope that we might get some folks interested, even if not in Linux but at least in a later Windows version...

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Well, it's not using any Winstep code so I don't see a problem there, and besides it's a very different thing. For more detail, I think it's better if we wait till I can edit/abbreviate/simplify/extract my architecture/design as mentioned before.

nexter wrote:
This is perhaps the main reason for talking Linux more than Windblows. ;-) (Gosh, long time since last I've seen/heard that expression!) The difference is, under Linux we have to develop a complete new Desktop Environment, for a variety of reasons, whereas Windows of course has a completely different structure to Linux and does not have a separate DE - Explorer is both window manager and DE rolled into one (and more). Hence, we cannot put a DE as such on top of it, and we certainly don't want to f*** with trying to replace Explorer - some have tried (e.g., Litestep) and failed miserably, and that was before Windows 7-10 came along. So, it will be far easier to initially develop a Linux version and then when that is pretty much done think Windows.

OK
Nexter wrote:
A lot of the DE-specific code will have to be dropped out and/or modified for a Windows version, there's no way around that, and some code added. E.g.,for a start the "app" will - like Winstep - have to "hide" the Explorer desktop as completely as possible. It's far easier this way than the other way round, that is, starting with a Windows version and then moving to Linux.

Yes I just think as stated above this being a windows forum,,,,,,,,,,

Yep.

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Initially, as and for the reasons outlined above, it will have to be a Linux project as I see it. (Where it's also needed much more.)

Sponsorship doesn't mean having to splash sponsors' names all over the place - there would be a separate page on a web site listing all the sponsors etc. Just about all - except commercial, i.e., paid for - Linux distros depend on sponsorship to a greater or lesser extent, plus often also donations. Have a look at some of the various distros' web site to see what I mean.

Crowd funded/Pateron here we go, heheh. Yeah ok part off the idea of the 'new home(web)'
that is still down or up in the air. Tech suport have it until monday when I get paid if not fixed by then, iam changing my hosting.

Actually, yeah, crowd funding may well be a good idea at the beginning to fund setting up everything - including a professionally designed web site etc. For now, if you're having probs with Wordpress, SquareSpace I'm told might be worth looking into. (Free for non-commercial use?)

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
As for sales kinda going against the grain, well, not entirely. There are an increasing number of paid for Linux apps and even distros, in addition to the corporate/enterprise flavours such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and SUSE. (Pity RH - and Fedora - got there first with the name, otherwise I might have called this project after one of my own past or present hats!) All in all, I certainly wouldn't have any objection to going down the commercial route, but it may be wiser (esp. in order to attract developers) to stick to a free (of cost) Linux version for private users, but asking for a donation would be fine. Selling individual components additional to the basic thing wouldn't be feasible really, especially as everything will essentially be completely integrated.

Yes charging for it is an option

For Linux, for personal users, I think a cost-free model would be preferable as I said before, but soliciting donations. Sponsorship would be the main aim for finance - it would be ideal to have at least a core team of paid developers etc.

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
well, like I said, the term 'AI' as used at present is a complete misnomer. machine (auto-)learning is more accurate to a limited degree, but Artificial Stupidity for the moment seems fine by me. :) That said, good algorithms have their uses but in everyday computing are far too rare. The kinds used by search engines, shopping sites etc. are next to useless. You may be looking for/at a simple sauce pan and the damn thing wants to sell you a mobile BBQ! :P And I agree with you, inserting things just to bulk things up to make it look good is certainly not desirable. No, the way I envisioned machine learning there is a very practical one - e.g., algorithms to observe the way things run/operations are carried out/messages passed etc. and to suggest how the code could be improved - made more efficient, leaner, etc. etc.

Agreed. Yes, please guys, and anybody else, get involved. Your input would be most welcome.


As I said before, the thing is I would see a Windows etc. version as a successor to Winstep Xtreme, so I really would love for Jorge to be involved. Even though the basic code would have to be open source (with a BSD-like or even wholly proprietary license), Jorge could make the Windows version proprietary and commercial, with just an acknowledgement of the open source code portions used, any copyrights etc., and inclusion of its license.

So, how about it Jorge, let's have your thoughts.

Yeah, shouldn't be too much longer. As for including some GFX, I obviously have a pretty clear idea what it would look like, so I'll try my best but it'll take additional time.

Iam not a wiz with graphics, hence no logo on the old now down new home. I have taken the limirrty off inserting bold in your comments nRic hope you dont mind.

GFX are no problem for me, worked in/with graphic design, used to paint (and always sold all my paintings) and draw and also still do digital art (can't afford paint etc. these days), and of course did/do Winstep themes also. As for a logo, easier to come up with one once we know where this site is going overall, and/or once we've named the project - I have a couple of working titles, which I'll suggest when I present the outline architecture.

Nope, no problem at all Steve re: 'emboldening' my previous comments. Sorry I don't have enough time to cut down the previous ones due to my health.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:30 am 
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Posts: 173
nexter wrote:
Actually, yeah, crowd funding may well be a good idea at the beginning to fund setting up everything - including a professionally designed web site etc. For now, if you're having probs with Wordpress, SquareSpace I'm told might be worth looking into. (Free for non-commercial use?)

I have no problems with setting up WordPress, I have been trying to setup forums as per the request of a certain indiviual so to speak, I went and tried phpBB forums its the "hostings company" one click installer which is not up to snuff. It boils down to the fact of money paying for a new deal on hosting the domain can be transferred.
However the present hosting have brought in a techie person to fix said forum installer, they seem to be dragging there heals over getting it fixed. That dragging is going to cost them trade in the long run.
I can always revert to the forum we had before, but if its worth doing its worth doing right.

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Last edited by oOSGearOo on Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:53 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Well, there do seem to be the odd few Linux users popping by occasionally or lurking, but yes, we are in Windows land here basically. But we can always hope that we might get some folks interested, even if not in Linux but at least in a later Windows version...

Not sure of the time scale this maybe distant memories once we get started on windows but once we do start does that mean that we are going to drop this posting back and forth?
I like the idea that this posting about it would eventually transfer into blog posts/forum postings of our own. How to keep the windows aspect in view/online while we go?
Not sure if we could make small steps advancement on top to keep the windows going on while we do this de/or what ever it is. Iam concerned about keeping the windows land going. Given that we are A)in windows land, B)Going to branch to our own doing(Forum-land) we need to keep the first idea off cross platform going, are we thus forgetting about other platforms namely Android and others? How many platforms are we targeting now, we started talking of windows drifted to Linux and have forgotten the others! But Android is a branch of Linux.....




nexter wrote:
For Linux, for personal users, I think a cost-free model would be preferable as I said before, but soliciting donations. Sponsorship would be the main aim for finance - it would be ideal to have at least a core team of paid developers etc.

Yes Linux has always been for the most 80/90% free based,
Nexter said in part wrote:

As for sales kinda going against the grain, well, not entirely.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Yes charging for it is an option


So thus being know for free based software the soliciting of donations, and sponsorship main area for finance. I don't know if we could just do sponsorship and donations, I mean who is going to benefit from it, I guess that's another can of worms.
nexter wrote:
- it would be ideal to have at least a core team of paid developers etc.

Right a team I think you said 10/12 devs, we need to think about things.




nexter wrote:
GFX are no problem for me, worked in/with graphic design, used to paint (and always sold all my paintings) and draw and also still do digital art (can't afford paint etc. these days), and of course did/do Winstep themes also. As for a logo, easier to come up with one once we know where this site is going overall, and/or once we've named the project - I have a couple of working titles, which I'll suggest when I present the outline architecture.

Well can you come up with a smallish logo just now for the new home at least. I can get you some firm dimensions, if you want. Should not be hard, as for you design outline architecture, hows that going? Where is it to be published?



nexter wrote:
Nope, no problem at all Steve re: 'emboldening' my previous comments. Sorry I don't have enough time to cut down the previous ones due to my health.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 900
Location: UK
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Actually, yeah, crowd funding may well be a good idea at the beginning to fund setting up everything - including a professionally designed web site etc. For now, if you're having probs with Wordpress, SquareSpace I'm told might be worth looking into. (Free for non-commercial use?)

I have no problems with setting up WordPress, I have been trying to setup forums as per the request of a certain indiviual so to speak, I went and tried phpBB forums its the "hostings company" one click installer which is not up to snuff. It boils down to the fact of money paying for a new deal on hosting the domain can be transferred.
However the present hosting have brought in a techie person to fix said forum installer, they seem to be dragging there heals over getting it fixed. That dragging is going to cost them trade in the long run.
I can always revert to the forum we had before, but if its worth doing its worth doing right.

Right, got it. I put that badly perhaps, it was the problem over the forum/phpBB. Look, as far as I'm concerned, for now I don't have any problem with the original forum, with a bit of tweaking it should be fine. (I don't think anyone actually "requested" phpBB.) And unless you're really familiar with php, phpBB can be a bugger to set up. Also, spending money unnecessarily doesn't really make sense to me to be frank. We can get by for now I'd say, and let's wait till we really get into things and get a little funding perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:12 pm 
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Posts: 173
nexter wrote:
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Actually, yeah, crowd funding may well be a good idea at the beginning to fund setting up everything - including a professionally designed web site etc. For now, if you're having probs with Wordpress, SquareSpace I'm told might be worth looking into. (Free for non-commercial use?)

I have no problems with setting up WordPress, I have been trying to setup forums as per the request of a certain indiviual so to speak, I went and tried phpBB forums its the "hostings company" one click installer which is not up to snuff. It boils down to the fact of money paying for a new deal on hosting the domain can be transferred.
However the present hosting have brought in a techie person to fix said forum installer, they seem to be dragging there heals over getting it fixed. That dragging is going to cost them trade in the long run.
I can always revert to the forum we had before, but if its worth doing its worth doing right.

Right, got it. I put that badly perhaps, it was the problem over the forum/phpBB. Look, as far as I'm concerned, for now I don't have any problem with the original forum, with a bit of tweaking it should be fine. (I don't think anyone actually "requested" phpBB.) And unless you're really familiar with php, phpBB can be a bugger to set up. Also, spending money unnecessarily doesn't really make sense to me to be frank. We can get by for now I'd say, and let's wait till we really get into things and get a little funding perhaps.
Yeah it will be sorted don't worry. As for setting up the forum/phpBB will tackel that once I get access. I don't like the way the company are handling it all this waiting around I see no work being done. No it was not requested however it was hinted it was not the same as. Iam paying for the hosting anyway I would not discribe myself as happy there(original)anyway, so the idea of change is going to be ok the only thing ile miss is the 24/7 support, however the support is down to a antiquauted style, I would be transferring to cpanel hosting so hopefully it would be better.

I await your reply to the big post.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 900
Location: UK
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Well, there do seem to be the odd few Linux users popping by occasionally or lurking, but yes, we are in Windows land here basically. But we can always hope that we might get some folks interested, even if not in Linux but at least in a later Windows version...

Not sure of the time scale this maybe distant memories once we get started on windows but once we do start does that mean that we are going to drop this posting back and forth?
I like the idea that this posting about it would eventually transfer into blog posts/forum postings of our own. How to keep the windows aspect in view/online while we go?
Not sure if we could make small steps advancement on top to keep the windows going on while we do this de/or what ever it is. Iam concerned about keeping the windows land going. Given that we are A)in windows land, B)Going to branch to our own doing(Forum-land) we need to keep the first idea off cross platform going, are we thus forgetting about other platforms namely Android and others? How many platforms are we targeting now, we started talking of windows drifted to Linux and have forgotten the others! But Android is a branch of Linux.....

Hmm, timescale between a - more or less - complete Linux Desktop Environment and the start of Windows development is almost impossible to predict as there are quite a few variables. The Linux DE has to be complete enough for a start on a Windows version to be feasible and sensible, to begin with. Then there is the variable of how quickly and how many steady Linux developers would come onboard once everything is committed to if not set in stone. It also depends on whether or not Jorge might be onboard for a Windows version. Not the least factor, if Jorge wouldn't be onboard, would be being able to attract Windows developers.

All in all, I'd rather err on the long side of things and have a wild guess of about five years or even more. But then again, it could just possibly happen sooner. (I am here talking purely about the first phase - a DE compatible with most dual core 64-bit systems and just reasonable GFX support, which would also be included in the second phase, a full-blown 3-D environment, for lower powered systems.

I would suggest that we do a summary of the discussion thus far at the point that we move over to your forum, or we could transfer the whole thing over, perhaps into a separate sub-forum or else as a pinned post.

We also could have a separate Cross-Platform/Windows sub-forum where we could keep potential Windows adoptees up to speed on what's happening from time to time. But the main discussion forum would, of necessity, remain pretty much Linux-centric only I think, otherwise things can quickly get very messy and confusing.

For the time being let's assume we're only considering a Linux DE and a Windows version. Another interesting possibility might be a (Free-?)BSD one. Android is a very much modified fork of GNU/Linux, but we'll have to keep that firmly in mind given the popularity of tablets. macOS and iOS - not so sure if that's even worthwhile doing and can't say I'm keen on it myself, but yes, we should keep it in mind - distantly - although definitely not as a free-of-cost project.

BTW, before I forget, there used to be a version of KDE for Windows - have you ever had a look at it?
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
For Linux, for personal users, I think a cost-free model would be preferable as I said before, but soliciting donations. Sponsorship would be the main aim for finance - it would be ideal to have at least a core team of paid developers etc.

Yes Linux has always been for the most 80/90% free based,

Indeed. And I think to gain the widest possible adoption and support of our DE, we'd have to go down that same route.

oOSGearOo wrote:
So thus being know for free based software the soliciting of donations, and sponsorship main area for finance. I don't know if we could just do sponsorship and donations, I mean who is going to benefit from it, I guess that's another can of worms.

Donations and sponsorship are of course what keeps most Linux distros and apps going, and doing very nicely in most cases. Of course, it's all done on a 'not-for-profit' basis, as indeed we would have to be, instead paying for any expenses and of course salaries/fees for developers and other 'staff'.

Sponsors benefit from having their company/corporation and brand named (with their logo) on the web site, and also from the amount they pay out being tax deductible. Simple as that. I don't really see a can of worms there. :)

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
- it would be ideal to have at least a core team of paid developers etc.

Right a team I think you said 10/12 devs, we need to think about things.

Even a tightly focused team of 5 or so could achieve more than a massive one of hundreds - look at the mess big developers like Apple, MS, Adobe, etc. make of things quite frequently. Anyway, all that can come later - I'll suggest a kind of starting 'roadmap' along with my "brief" architecture/design when we get to that, of what considerations we need to tackle in which order.

oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
GFX are no problem for me, worked in/with graphic design, used to paint (and always sold all my paintings) and draw and also still do digital art (can't afford paint etc. these days), and of course did/do Winstep themes also. As for a logo, easier to come up with one once we know where this site is going overall, and/or once we've named the project - I have a couple of working titles, which I'll suggest when I present the outline architecture.

Well can you come up with a smallish logo just now for the new home at least. I can get you some firm dimensions, if you want. Should not be hard, as for you design outline architecture, hows that going? Where is it to be published?

Re: a temp logo,I'll try to think up something. Perhaps something on the basis of 'Technobable'? What GFX file format do you prefer? .png OK? I tend to start out with something (often much) larger than needed and then reduce as needed. Any particular colour scheme you prefer Steve? Would you want an exact size and if so which, or something over-sized and therefore easily scaleable?

As for the architecture/design, that will have to wait a little longer till I'm fully better. Also, we'd really want that to see the light of day in your forums and on the site, along with the summary of previous discussion. I don't think here would be the best place for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 900
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oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Right, got it. I put that badly perhaps, it was the problem over the forum/phpBB. Look, as far as I'm concerned, for now I don't have any problem with the original forum, with a bit of tweaking it should be fine. (I don't think anyone actually "requested" phpBB.) And unless you're really familiar with php, phpBB can be a bugger to set up. Also, spending money unnecessarily doesn't really make sense to me to be frank. We can get by for now I'd say, and let's wait till we really get into things and get a little funding perhaps.

Yeah it will be sorted don't worry. As for setting up the forum/phpBB will tackel that once I get access. I don't like the way the company are handling it all this waiting around I see no work being done. No it was not requested however it was hinted it was not the same as. Iam paying for the hosting anyway I would not discribe myself as happy there(original)anyway, so the idea of change is going to be ok the only thing ile miss is the 24/7 support, however the support is down to a antiquauted style, I would be transferring to cpanel hosting so hopefully it would be better.

Having any kind of support is still useful to have, and unless you're really unhappy with the hosting and support, and have money to burn, I'd be inclined to stick with them at least till renewal is due - could always move it then.

oOSGearOo wrote:
I await your reply to the big post.

Done, before I went to sleep. :)

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