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 Post subject: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Been using Xtreme for 3 hours. It's doing about 80% what I want (so I might actually buy it!)

There are a few things it either doesn't do, or I haven't figured out yet:
  • I created a hotspot wizard for multiple apps under a folder. Trying to recreate what Bins does, and this is close. I hit the icon in the quick launch area and the apps I have bookmarked in the folder and they popup on the list fine and execute. What I'd like is not a list, but a box of icons. I think this is the Stacks Docklet I saw in the features to be worked on. Is this available or not yet?
  • Next I was trying to create an undocked shelf or dock as an area on my desktop with multiple rows (similar to Fences). Possible or not?
  • Within a shelf, I only get the option to sort by name or date or whatever, but not an unsorted list. I'd like to move stuff around as I see fit. Possible or not?
  • Jump lists. So right clicking on an app on the Win 10 toolbar gets you the latest for that app and ability to pin stuff to the specific jump lists. Didn't see anything like that for the toolbars.


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:47 pm 
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JKnot wrote:

[*]Next I was trying to create an undocked shelf or dock as an area on my desktop with multiple rows (similar to Fences). Possible or not?

[/list]

AFAIK only a shelf can have multiple rows and it can be undocked
http://prntscr.com/hr7zkm
Image
(though docks can have subdocks but not the same)
keep in mind you can only have one shelf (for now)

JKnot wrote:

[*]Next I was trying to create an undocked shelf or dock as an area on my desktop with multiple rows (similar to Fences). Possible or not?

[*]Within a shelf, I only get the option to sort by name or date or whatever, but not an unsorted list. I'd like to move stuff around as I see fit. Possible or not?

[/list]


i think it depends on t<pe of tab
http://prntscr.com/hr80x5
Image
i only use regular tabs, and it s possible but you need to unlock icons to rearrange them
Folder type tabs dont let you manually rearrange icons i think, dont knopw about others


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:28 am 
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@Seeker, thanks for a quick reply. I know the shelf can be undocked, but I can't figure out how to make it multiple rows, meaning the window can be resized to show multiple rows at once.

Found the regular tab, so dragging stuff onto it seems the way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:09 am 
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JKnot wrote:
@Seeker, thanks for a quick reply. I know the shelf can be undocked, but I can't figure out how to make it multiple rows, meaning the window can be resized to show multiple rows at once.


when you have more icons than the shelfs length would accommodate in at least one tab double click that tabs name and that should expand the other row(s), i think there is another method but dont remember it


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:20 am 
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JKnot wrote:
@Seeker, thanks for a quick reply. I know the shelf can be undocked, but I can't figure out how to make it multiple rows, meaning the window can be resized to show multiple rows at once.


As Seeker explained, double clicking a tab title in the Shelf will fully expand that tab (within the limits of available screen space, of course). Double clicking it again returns it to the default number of rows.

You can specify what the default number of rows is (normally 1) in Shelf Properties -> Appearance tab -> Icon Rows.

You can also left click a tab title, hold and *drag* it up. This will manually resize the Shelf.

As for freely rearranging items, you can only do that on Regular type tabs, pretty much for the same reason you also cannot re-arrange items in, say, the Windows Control Panel.

Jumplists, Stacks, vertical Shelves, multiple Shelves and multi-session modules/widgets are all on the to-do list. Basically those are the only things left in the to-do list (that and the Winstep Theme Maker GUI) to make Winstep Xtreme pretty much feature complete - after that, bloat can only be accomplished by adding more and more different widgets/module types. :wink:

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http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:31 am 
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seeker wrote:
http://prntscr.com/hr7zkm


I edited your post to show the actual images. Pity the attachments in this forum cannot be positioned within the text, otherwise you would be able to upload the images directly to the forum. :)

Pretty sure you already know that, but, just in case: if you want to make them visible like I did, follow the link then right click on the image and select 'Copy Image Location' (Firefox, Chrome should be something similar). Then just add an Img tag and insert the URL between the tags. Leave the original URL in the text, though, you never know when they might want to forbid direct linking.

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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:27 pm
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Thanks for all the responses. Any thoughts on 'bins' like capability or jump lists?

Besides these things, I'm really a fan of the software. I'm now noticing some bugs which may keep me from it, though:

- Winstep has no idea what to do with Steam Big Picture. Active task list disappeared, system tray was blank, and weather or not the task bar and shelf displayed properly has been random.

- Upon reboot, the shelf does not follow the "prevent maximized windows from overlapping the shelf" even when checked. This same feature sometimes allows apps underneath it and sometimes reserves the space so that the window is sized to the edge.

- Win+x, the windows menu, and the volume show up on the primary screen when I keep my task bar on the secondary screen.

- The toolbars do not follow standard toobar expectations for maximizing a window (such as Amazon video): i.e., they should get covered up.

- Portions seem to be loading before login (I could hear the shelf animation sounds), which made the login screen delay in popping up. Potentially a huge security problem.

Overall it just doesn't feel like it's ready for Windows 10. The rest of forums seem to bear this out as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Welp, just starting Steam normally caused the tasklist to disappear.


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:32 pm 
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I'm off to be with my family for Xmas so I don't have time to deal with all your points now, but:

1. If I understood correctly, you are using Steam Big Picture as an alternate Windows 10 shell and you expect tray icons provided *by Explorer* to still work on the Winstep application?

2. Regarding the sound before login: yes, that is what happens when you enable 'Fast Boot' - which, by the way, is *disabled* by default. The purpose of Fast Boot is to make the Winstep application already be there for you when you login - otherwise it will be subject to the 30 second or so delay Windows 10 *enforces* on all 3rd party applications at startup to make itself look good.

As for Winstep applications not being ready for Windows 10, I - and I believe many others here who actually use it on Windows 10 - strongly disagree... but will follow up later.

Merry Christmas!

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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:46 am 
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winstep wrote:
I'm off to be with my family for Xmas so I don't have time to deal with all your points now, but:

1. If I understood correctly, you are using Steam Big Picture as an alternate Windows 10 shell and you expect tray icons provided *by Explorer* to still work on the Winstep application?

Nope - it's not an alternate shell. It's basically a full window app, which seems to be the thing that confuses Winstep.


Quote:
2. Regarding the sound before login: yes, that is what happens when you enable 'Fast Boot' - which, by the way, is *disabled* by default. The purpose of Fast Boot is to make the Winstep application already be there for you when you login - otherwise it will be subject to the 30 second or so delay Windows 10 *enforces* on all 3rd party applications at startup to make itself look good.

As for Winstep applications not being ready for Windows 10, I - and I believe many others here who actually use it on Windows 10 - strongly disagree... but will follow up later.

Merry Christmas!


Ah - documentation problem then. I tend to hit buttons to see what they can do (especially without docs). Wish I could find this one again....

Merry Christmas to you as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:48 am 
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Ok, I'm back. Hope you had a Merry Christmas too. :)

Before we even begin this discussion, there are a couple of things that should be made very clear:

Winstep Xtreme has a 'vanilla' part (i.e.; one where it acts just like a normal Windows application) and another part which needs to integrate deeper into the OS. While the former relies on well documented and available Windows functions, the latter is forced to rely on 'tricks' and undocumented calls to achieve what it needs to do, because Microsoft neither exposed the necessary function calls nor documented them.

Now, Microsoft knows that documented functions MUST remain stable and work the same across different versions of Windows, otherwise applications would start failing left and right. This is called 'maintaining backwards compatibility'.

Take the icons in the system tray, for instance. Microsoft does not provide ANY interface to manipulate or display them. The only thing it gives applications is the ability to add or remove their own icons to and from it.

The problem of having to rely on undocumented OS features and structures - because there is no other choice - is that Microsoft can change them at any time. And it does.

Until Microsoft came up with Windows 10 and the completely idiotic notion that RAD (Rapid Application Development) was a good idea for an OS (it's not, it's terrible!), this was much less of a problem. If any changes were made from one Windows version to the next 'all' (ah-ah!) you had to do was figure out what those changes were, work around them once, and then you could sit back and enjoy stability and compatibility for the handful of years it took for Microsoft to come up with the next version of Windows. The code would look a bit like this: if running under Windows Vista do this, if under Windows 7 do that instead.

Windows 10 changed all this. The OS is no longer stable for long, Microsoft keeps adding and changing stuff (and, of course, introducing new bugs). Unless you are a vanilla application (and sometimes even then!), every single Windows update has the potential and the ability to break stuff that was previously working fine.

Take displaying a list of running applications, like the taskbar does, for instance: for many years and until Windows 7, implementing a taskbar replacement was pretty straightforward, the rules were simple and actually well documented. Then Microsoft started adding new functionality (such as jump lists) WITHOUT exposing ways/interfaces for 3rd party applications to tap into that new functionality and manipulate it.

Starting with Sinofsky's Windows 8 and now Nadella with Windows 10, Microsoft has also been trying to pull a dirty trick on all of us: it has been trying to replace classic Windows (Win32) with that WindowsRT/Universal Apps (UWP) abomination. They're doing this not out of technical innovation (Universal Apps are WAY more limited than Win32 applications) but out of a desire to control EVERYTHING that is written for Windows so that a) Microsoft gets to decide what can be published and what not, b) gets a 30% cut on anything made for Windows because it can only be sold and distributed via the Windows Store.

In other words, Microsoft always had Apple envy and now is trying to change Windows from what made it successful in the first place, that is, being an OPEN operating system, into a closed wall garden. If before they still had an excuse (make Apps compatible with both the Desktop OS and Windows phones), now that it has given up on phones that excuse is gone. So why is Microsoft STILL busy integrating App functionality into the core of Windows?

Now, your must understand that Windows RT has nothing to do with Windows as we know it except for the name, it was just made to look as if it did: Windows 10 is like an hybrid, with two completely independent, and above all, incompatible, OSs co-existing side by side. Windows RT is like a nasty parasite that is slowly taking over the host.

There is a reason why, other than the Winstep dock (AFAIK), no other docks currently work with or integrate ANY support for Windows 10 UWP Apps. Because UWP Apps have nothing to do with Win32. Because the interface between Win32 and UWP apps is not documented at all. Because they don't follow the same rules as Win32 applications. And to top all that, the rules KEEP CHANGING every time Microsoft releases an update to Windows 10.

The whole thing, in it's current state, is just a BIG HUGE MESS.

Anyway, I had my rant: now you can understand where I am coming from. Next post I will tackle your issues one by one.

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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:26 pm 
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JKnot wrote:
- Winstep has no idea what to do with Steam Big Picture. Active task list disappeared, system tray was blank, and weather or not the task bar and shelf displayed properly has been random.


First of all, I am not familiar with Steam Big Picture. I'm sure others use it too, but, other than you, until now nobody had ever mentioned it. So, in the grand scheme of things, my guess is that only a small minority of users actually use Steam in Big Picture mode.

You claim you're not running it as the shell. Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure the systray being blank would only happen if Steam was being run as the shell (i.e.; Windows is NOT booting into Explorer). Take a look at the following video, is this what you did (specifically minute 3:00)?



Anyway, please provide some screenshots so I can see what you mean by 'not displayed properly'.

JKnot wrote:
- Upon reboot, the shelf does not follow the "prevent maximized windows from overlapping the shelf" even when checked. This same feature sometimes allows apps underneath it and sometimes reserves the space so that the window is sized to the edge.


Reserve screen space is also functionality provided by the Explorer app bars. Again, if Explorer is not the shell my guess is that you would run into problems here too.

Anyway, you understand that 'reserve screen space' only prevents *maximized* windows from covering a toolbar, right? If the window is NOT maximized it can still be moved below or above the toolbar.

Again, a screenshot showing what the problem is would help me understand better what is going on there.

JKnot wrote:
- Win+x, the windows menu, and the volume show up on the primary screen when I keep my task bar on the secondary screen.


The Start Menu will always appear where the native Windows taskbar is actually located, even if hidden. Before Windows 7 the Start Menu was 'moved' next to the mouse pointer, but applications that did (and there were others) this had to give up on the idea because the Start Menu in Windows 7 would paint and refresh incorrectly if you moved it from its original location. You can blame Microsoft for that one.

I actually haven't tried making the application move the Windows 10 Start Menu to see if the same thing still happens.

As for the tray volume popup, that is the result of one of the changes Microsoft made to Windows 10 after the original release (something I talked about in my post above). Back when I implemented and tested it, it was working fine - then Microsoft changed something and Windows tray popups were no longer being moved to the correct position. Because I am still on Windows 7, I did not notice it immediately.

Anyway, this has already been fixed in v17.12, which should be out today or tomorrow.

JKnot wrote:
- The toolbars do not follow standard toobar expectations for maximizing a window (such as Amazon video): i.e., they should get covered up.


There is a very big difference between a *maximized window* and a *full screen* window. What happens when you make a *Youtube* video full screen? Don't the toolbars get covered up as they should for full screen applications (such as games too)? If they do, then the issue is with the Amazon video player, not Winstep.

To help with this there is a 'auto-hide for maximized applications' setting in the Position tab of the dock Properties dialog, which becomes available when the dock is set to 'Always on Top'.

JKnot wrote:
- Portions seem to be loading before login (I could hear the shelf animation sounds), which made the login screen delay in popping up. Potentially a huge security problem.


Already discussed. And why would this be a 'potential huge security problem' if the applications are NOT running elevated?

Anyway, to turn Fast Boot off: open Preferences, General tab, uncheck 'Enable Fast Boot'.

I encourage users to play with the settings to see what they do, but it's always a good idea to make a Backup of your settings before you start playing with them. If you get into real trouble, there is also a 'Factory Reset' option in the Troubleshooting Options panel (Preferences -> Advanced tab).

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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:18 am 
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winstep wrote:
I actually haven't tried making the application move the Windows 10 Start Menu to see if the same thing still happens.


Well, I did now, and my findings are almost as hilarious (not!) as what happened with Windows 7:

The Start Menu under Windows 10 is made of two individual windows with a Windows.UI.Core.CoreWindow classname. One, called 'Search' is the panel that appears when you start typing something into the Start Menu. The other, called 'Start' is the Start Menu itself.

So far so good, it should be a simple matter of moving the 'Start' window to the correct position under the mouse, right? Not so. Turns out that, despite this not being what you see on the screen, our 'Start' window is ALWAYS the size of the full screen. Microsoft seems to use the entire screen space as a 'canvas', with some portions of that canvas invisible, to draw the Start Menu.

So, how is this a problem? Well, to be able to move a window and not having part of it cropped or appearing partially off-screen, we need to know the size (height and width) of that window/panel. Because the Start Menu *window* is now *always* the same full screen size, regardless of the size of the *visible* Start Menu, we can't do this.

And there you have it... for whatever reason, with this cr*p Microsoft just ensured no 3rd party application can temporarily 'relocate' the Start Menu so that it pops up at a different position of the screen.

But then, of course, some users will blame the Winstep application for its inability to reposition the Windows Start Menu under Windows 10 - instead of assigning the blame to the REAL culprits, which are MS and MS developers. If they decide at some point to do the same with the system tray pop ups, we won't be able to relocate those anymore either (for when you click on a Network, Volume, etc, system tray icon in a dock).

Guess that is why under Winstep Xtreme the main Start Menu is actually the 'NextSTART' menu - at least that one we have full control over. On the next release, v17.12, the All Programs sub-menu under Windows 10 will also have a new 'Apps' entry, which opens a sub-menu displaying ALL your installed UWP Apps.

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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:13 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Ok, I'm back. Hope you had a Merry Christmas too. :)

Before we even begin this discussion, there are a couple of things that should be made very clear:
....


Great rant! When I can't get Firefox to be default browser except through some shenanigans, you know M$ is up to no good. I've been hoping for a second class action for that one. In a sense, no app will be ready for Win10 if it's a continuously moving target!


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 Post subject: Re: Icons from a Hotspot / Jump Lists
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Let me summarize stuff:

- 'Bins' like feature: I think this will be a Stacks Docklet.

- Undocked shelf. Found the settings for multiple rows.

- Regular tabs are the way to go with control freaks! I'm still using a mix because I had stuff setup in folders before.

- Win+x and volume control. I figured this out by exiting Xtreme and noticing the standard Windows toolbar had moved. Although sometimes the volume doesn't quite show up right. I'll have to work on this one to reproduce exactly.

- Steam & the task list. I've had the icons disappear several times now from the task list. I'll see if I can figure out what is triggering it. This is both with and without Big Picture.

- Steam & the system Tray. Can't seem to get this to happen again. Big Picture is not being used as a shell as in the video. It's just a maximized version of Steam, but it probably does a bit more going on, since I use it with a Link.

- Maximized windows (particularly videos). I'll see if the 'auto-hide for maximized applications' helps (if I can find it again). I am guessing it's not going actually work as I want it to. The shelf behavior with maximzed windows was inconsistent. I'll see if I can get it to misbehave and I'll give you the steps on how I did it.

- Startup pre-load. You are right about non-elevated apps, but I couldn't actually login at the exact same time and had to do a password reset. The coincidence made me panic.

My approach was to setup stuff as I thought I would want it and see if it worked. If there is an export for settings to a text file, I'll do that, reset the settings and start again to find exactly where I notice odd behavior. My brother would get me to do a run on his web app and would wonder how the hell I found so many idiosyncrasies and bugs. Also had a vendor do a demo for a week with their app - they left with 20 or so things to fix. Although another 20 were, "Nah, normal people just wouldn't do that."


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