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 Post subject: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:39 pm 
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I'm going for multiple Shelves.

...and multiple Shelves also means vertical Shelves.

... and proper high-DPI support too, instead of keeping the tabs at the original size and only increasing the text size.

It's time for the Shelf to get some love. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Me too. :)

But I may be biased. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:00 pm 
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winstep wrote:
I'm going for multiple Shelves.

...and multiple Shelves also means vertical Shelves.

... and proper high-DPI support too, instead of keeping the tabs at the original size and only increasing the text size.

It's time for the Shelf to get some love. :wink:

Excellent Jorge! We've been waiting for vertical shelf for a very very long time. Nowadays, a shelf is far more useful than ever it was in the past even, as is NextSTART. If necessary, I think I could live without the dock, but shelf and menus, never.

Also high DPI support - yes! :)

But, at the same time, don't forget about ThemeBuilder - it's essential, and I would rate it top priority even so we can attract new skinners. The dock part is just about perfect AFAIC and indeed could be deemed pretty much ready for a release version, if you just add delection of save folder, and also have TM save the *.nsx etc. folders with the correct path an theme name details. So, just a tiny little job my old friend.... ;) And then you could tackle Workshelf next, with all its forthcoming new options. :) (And when you get really bored, there's always the Cindarella (nowadays, or so it seems) - NextSTART! :P )

OK, enough teasing. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Ric, once I had a list as long as my arm of things I wanted to add to Xtreme. The last time I remade that list even I was surprised to notice that from the previously huge list, less than a handful of things remain.

I think it's better to cross everything off that is still left on that list, as fast as I can, and only then focus on the Theme Builder.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:49 am 
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Just so you guys know how HORRIBLE and BORING it is having to change something so ingrained in the code: just to *start* making the application able to work with multiple Shelves I had to rename and reorganize nearly *400* different variables - ONE BY ONE.

Thank God for Search and Replace to do the same in the rest of the code, or this would be an impossible task.

When I made the changes that made it possible to quickly add new modules it was the same thing... this part is boring, boring, boring... aaargh. :roll: :P

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:33 am 
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winstep wrote:
Ric, once I had a list as long as my arm of things I wanted to add to Xtreme. The last time I remade that list even I was surprised to notice that from the previously huge list, less than a handful of things remain.

I think it's better to cross everything off that is still left on that list, as fast as I can, and only then focus on the Theme Builder.

That is, of course, your prerogative Jorge. Glad to note the list is now very small. :)

Found some probs with ThemeBuilder - couldn't sleep as having a fever, so decided to play around with tiled and advanced tiled docks in TB. OK, the descriptions of 'left endcap' and 'right endcap' are a bit misleading, especially in the vertical docks sections, but no matter, I know what is meant and I suppose at that point you were getting really bored with it. :) But the real problem is, no matter how you set up non-stretchable margins and percentage offset for icons, TB insist on making docks very narrow. And if a dock takes up nearly all the screen space, it really gets squeezed like hell, with icons reduced to about 32x32 and little space on sides of icons, or top/bottom. (OK, we know why.) Not only that, with endcaps it insists on flipping the endcap upside down. Moreover, it insists on endcaps the same size of the tiles - horrible waste of space. And with simple tiled dock, it still insists on adding its own endcaps. Ah well. Annoying, as at least one of my current batch of themes demands tiled. May just simplify manually though.

As you're tackling the shelf now, are you changing the 'other half' of the code so multiple mods will become a possibility at the same time? Just curious.

If your list of things to do is getting all that small, have a look at my warped bar concept - might well be worth thinking about longer term.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:06 am 
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Aaargh, what have I gotten myself into with this multiple Shelves thing?! lol

nexter wrote:
Found some probs with ThemeBuilder - couldn't sleep as having a fever, so decided to play around with tiled and advanced tiled docks in TB. OK, the descriptions of 'left endcap' and 'right endcap' are a bit misleading, especially in the vertical docks sections, but no matter, I know what is meant and I suppose at that point you were getting really bored with it. :) But the real problem is, no matter how you set up non-stretchable margins and percentage offset for icons, TB insist on making docks very narrow. And if a dock takes up nearly all the screen space, it really gets squeezed like hell, with icons reduced to about 32x32 and little space on sides of icons, or top/bottom. (OK, we know why.) Not only that, with endcaps it insists on flipping the endcap upside down. Moreover, it insists on endcaps the same size of the tiles - horrible waste of space. And with simple tiled dock, it still insists on adding its own endcaps. Ah well. Annoying, as at least one of my current batch of themes demands tiled. May just simplify manually though.


Ric, I can't focus on the Theme Builder now. Dealing with it would take an inordinate amount of my time: most things skinning related are no longer fresh in my memory, so to answer a lot of the questions I would have to study the code again, which would take a lot of time, etc... I already have my hands full with this multiple Shelves thing.

For instance, that issue you have with endcaps doesn't make any sense to me. Yes, endcaps are the same size of a tile and there are reasons for it, but what does it matter? Just make half or more of the bitmap transparent. :wink:

nexter wrote:
As you're tackling the shelf now, are you changing the 'other half' of the code so multiple mods will become a possibility at the same time? Just curious.


The more changes you make to the code at once, the higher the possibility of introducing new bugs. This Shelf change is already EXTREMELY complex and time consuming - I'm dealing with parts of the code that haven't been touched in years and making thousands (literally!) of changes that are spread out all over the application. Margin for error is very small since a mistake here could mean the user losing the contents of his Shelf tabs, docks, etc...

This is a bit like juggling: add more balls than you can handle and all of them end up falling to the floor.

nexter wrote:
If your list of things to do is getting all that small, have a look at my warped bar concept - might well be worth thinking about longer term.


Again, same thing, I can't focus on that now and maintain the rhythm I have been keeping in terms of churning out new updates. This type of concept (an all-in-one toolbar) isn't exactly new either... was it Motif that had something similar? Anyway, it goes against the free form skinning at the basis of Winstep applications, and it doesn't really fit into the plan.

Sysmetrix did something similar a few years ago, and although a great little application, it had the drawback that the content, although modular, was decided by the skinner and not by the user - and it couldn't be any other way for that type of application. You can't have 'puzzle' like modular components and free form skinning at the same time, one will always limit the other.

NextSTART, with its ability to integrate WorkShelf desktop modules as *icons* into the NextSTART taskbar (and optional re-orderable sections), already goes as far as this approach allows for an application like Winstep.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:13 am 
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winstep wrote:
Aaargh, what have I gotten myself into with this multiple Shelves thing?! lol

Umm.... some kind of wasps' nests perhaps? ;)
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Found some probs with ThemeBuilder ....

Ric, I can't focus on the Theme Builder now. Dealing with it would take an inordinate amount of my time: most things skinning related are no longer fresh in my memory, so to answer a lot of the questions I would have to study the code again, which would take a lot of time, etc... I already have my hands full with this multiple Shelves thing.

For instance, that issue you have with endcaps doesn't make any sense to me. Yes, endcaps are the same size of a tile and there are reasons for it, but what does it matter? Just make half or more of the bitmap transparent. :wink:

No, I appreciate that you can't focus on it. As for the problem with endcaps, doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me either but it can only be related to the fact that the (vertical) dock affected, even without endcaps, reaches to very nearly the bottom of the screen and the programme compensates by making it smaller - much smaller. Anyway, just thought it might be worth your keeping a note on this for reference for when you do get around to TB.

As for making parts of endcaps transparent, did that first thing, at least for one theme. But that still limits the amount of space left for a dock to expand of course.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
As you're tackling the shelf now, are you changing the 'other half' of the code so multiple mods will become a possibility at the same time? Just curious.

The more changes you make to the code at once, the higher the possibility of introducing new bugs. This Shelf change is already EXTREMELY complex and time consuming - I'm dealing with parts of the code that haven't been touched in years and making thousands (literally!) of changes that are spread out all over the application. Margin for error is very small since a mistake here could mean the user losing the contents of his Shelf tabs, docks, etc...

This is a bit like juggling: add more balls than you can handle and all of them end up falling to the floor.

LOL! Yeah, understood Jorge. I was just wondering about it and thought doing the code first might have made the multiple shelves easier. Obviously, not.

Still with shelves, would it be possible at all to have separate inactive tab bitmaps for when the tab is 1) in a position where it's only adjoining other normal tabs, 2) when adjoining left mini tab, and 3) when adjoining right mini tab? This would be what's needed if we were to have proper overlapping tabs. (This would assume that mini tabs are identical - except in size - to inactive tabs.)
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
If your list of things to do is getting all that small, have a look at my warped bar concept - might well be worth thinking about longer term.

Again, same thing, I can't focus on that now and maintain the rhythm I have been keeping in terms of churning out new updates. This type of concept (an all-in-one toolbar) isn't exactly new either... was it Motif that had something similar? Anyway, it goes against the free form skinning at the basis of Winstep applications, and it doesn't really fit into the plan.

Of course it's not entirely new - as I said in the thread. The first thing I think was the CDE bar (for the CDE Window Manager for Unix systems), though it was/is rather limited in scope and flexibility. The closest thing came next - OS/2 Warp 4's Warp Bar, but still somewhat limited in scope and configurability. And there also are/were QNX's fairly flexible forget-what-it's-called and the BeOS Tracker though that was much more limited.

Stardock had something not entirely far removed from this in OD for OS/2 and also in OD Win (about 1997).

Pity really that it's a non-starter....
winstep wrote:
Sysmetrix did something similar a few years ago, and although a great little application, it had the drawback that the content, although modular, was decided by the skinner and not by the user - and it couldn't be any other way for that type of application. You can't have 'puzzle' like modular components and free form skinning at the same time, one will always limit the other.

NextSTART, with its ability to integrate WorkShelf desktop modules as *icons* into the NextSTART taskbar (and optional re-orderable sections), already goes as far as this approach allows for an application like Winstep.

Oh that's really crap, having the contents determined by the skinner.

I'm well aware of the NS taskbar's abilities, that's why I said it was really a combination of that and NeXus but in a different form and also why I thought it might be easily doable. Would have been relatively easy (even allowing for skinning) in NeXT - you could use layered container objects and multiple different types of container objects all in one.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am 
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Slowly getting there... very time consuming and complex.

Luckily the previous work for multiple docks serves as an example on what should be done for multiple shelves, otherwise this would take a very loooong time.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:33 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Slowly getting there... very time consuming and complex.

Luckily the previous work for multiple docks serves as an example on what should be done for multiple shelves, otherwise this would take a very loooong time.

Excellent news Jorge! Really looking forward to a vertical shelf.

Will there be a guide of some sort on how to configure these multiple shelves? At the moment I'm stuck even using the new(er) format for skinning the shelf (although of course I have all the right bitmaps) (and even with settings for an inverted shelf, absolutely no clue!) - it's not so obvious from the newer config files what setting does what. Really like the newer format, much simpler than physically having to cut up the bitmaps into all those little areas.

I suppose the multiple shelf format bitmaps will pretty much follow the NeXus format, i.e., Left, Right, Top, Bottom bitmaps?

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Eh? This has nothing to do with skinning, Ric, other than the fact each Shelf, like the docks do now, will be able to use a different theme from the others, if you so want.

The same way each dock has its own Dock Properties panel, so will each Shelf.

EDIT: Ah, gotcha. I think that, at least for the time being, vertical Shelves will simply rotate the horizontal bitmaps. Haven't gotten there yet, that will be one of the last things to think about/implement.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:01 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Eh? This has nothing to do with skinning, Ric, other than the fact each Shelf, like the docks do now, will be able to use a different theme from the others, if you so want.

The same way each dock has its own Dock Properties panel, so will each Shelf.

EDIT: Ah, gotcha. I think that, at least for the time being, vertical Shelves will simply rotate the horizontal bitmaps. Haven't gotten there yet, that will be one of the last things to think about/implement.

Well, simply rotating the horizontal bitmaps would presumably be simpler to implement, so rotate the bitmaps of a (bottom) shelf 90 degrees right for a left edge vertical shelf, and 90 degrees left for a right edge one. Sounds just about perfect Jorge.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Quote:
vertical Shelves will simply rotate the horizontal bitmaps.


Now I just lurk and crawl out from under a stone, when I get confused, and I like the thought of vertical shelves, simple question, will the shelves be 'collapsible' and 'hidden' :?:


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:58 pm 
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divingbrit wrote:
Now I just lurk and crawl out from under a stone, when I get confused, and I like the thought of vertical shelves, simple question, will the shelves be 'collapsible' and 'hidden' :?:


A vertical Shelf is exactly the same as an horizontal Shelf but rotated 90º clockwise or counter-clockwise. Imagine rotating your monitor from landscape to portrait or vice-versa.

There is one difference though: although tab header text is rotated, the icon text will not be, i.e.; it will still appear below the icon.

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