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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:08 pm 
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winstep wrote:
neoian1277 wrote:
Out of interest how easy would it be to have the dock placed vertical and behave like the one on Ubuntu where the dock and icons remain a fixed width and you scroll through the opened apps instead of the icons getting smaller.

You basically just described the new Drawers.

A dock with scroll buttons is not a 'dock', by the way, but something else entirely different. :)

LOL! Indeed, that sounds like a drawer to me as well. :) Scroll buttons are something entirely alien to the concept of a dock.

It would be good though if NeXus could allow for icons that do not fit in the available space (other than by reducing their size) to move to a second or third row or column by default. Or ideally, in the case of tile-based docks, allow for tiles to be moved anywhere in the manner of the old 'Fiend' dock on NeXT - now that really would be fiendishly cool! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:17 pm 
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nexter wrote:
1) Does the custom DT anim have to have the same image size as the iconised one? Or can it be independent of this?


When using PNG files, use any size you want, it gets automatically resized. Of course, minimum should be 128x128 pixels per animation frame (ideally 256x256) because of icon magnification in the dock.

nexter wrote:
2) what kind of scheme does the anim follow - would it be similar to the (separate icon) iconised (in-shelf) one, which I would guess takes the order WsTrashES.*, *1.*, *2.*, *3.*, *4.*, *D.* and finally ends on *FS.*? (From what you say above I would gather the actual number of frames can be varied, of course.)


By looking at the code, the animation PNG strip seems to be only used for the actual animation. When not animating, the normal separate images are used.

nexter wrote:
3) Should the frames all be joined up (i.e., i create a canvas the same height as the individual icons and the exact width of the total number of frames and copy the icons into this one next to the other and the anim routine assumes a square icon format based on the height or something like that), or should there be some kind of break or interval in between the frames and if so, what?


The former. Just like an animated icon.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:58 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
1) Does the custom DT anim have to have the same image size as the iconised one? Or can it be independent of this?

When using PNG files, use any size you want, it gets automatically resized. Of course, minimum should be 128x128 pixels per animation frame (ideally 256x256) because of icon magnification in the dock.

IOW, the DT anim is tied in with the iconised/in-shelf recycler files? That is a bit of a bummer in that it would tie my NeXT based anims to 48x48 as that's what I had to do for the in-shelf files as the 64x64 ones looked very small and very ugly when reduced by Workshelf. (I was able to achieve a better image size and quality by first reducing the canvas size of the original icons, then reducing the image size to 48x48 by a final few pixels.)

As for 128/256px, I'm working on my new recyclers at 512x512px, to be reduced to 256 or 128 for the final images, working on the assumption that with ever higher res displays something like 128px icons will probably become the norm one of these days. With the variations on the original NeXT recycler and NeXT Black Hole recycler, I am limited to a max of 64px as there is simply no way to scale those images up. As regards magnification in the dock, frankly, I hate that feature with a passion and would find it a major irritation if I had to use it regularly. It might be more useful if it only magnified the icon directly under the mouse pointer and not adjoining icons as well.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
2) what kind of scheme does the anim follow - would it be similar to the (separate icon) iconised (in-shelf) one, which I would guess takes the order WsTrashES.*, *1.*, *2.*, *3.*, *4.*, *D.* and finally ends on *FS.*? (From what you say above I would gather the actual number of frames can be varied, of course.)

By looking at the code, the animation PNG strip seems to be only used for the actual animation. When not animating, the normal separate images are used.

So basically, the shelf superimposes the WsTrashES.*/*FS.* files on the background DT image (WsTrashE.* ?) and the anim temporarily takes their place? So they are tied to the same size then, alas.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
3) Should the frames all be joined up (i.e., i create a canvas the same height as the individual icons and the exact width of the total number of frames and copy the icons into this one next to the other and the anim routine assumes a square icon format based on the height or something like that), or should there be some kind of break or interval in between the frames and if so, what?

The former. Just like an animated icon.

Right, that's what I suspected and worked on.

Anyway, thanks a mill Jorge. That's cleared up then. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:41 am 
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Not sure if this is beta related, but encountered a real oddity yesterday. When setting up a new alarm, the scroll buttons for the time/dates etc. work the wrong way round, that is, the lower (down) ones increase and the upper (up) ones decrease!

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:09 am 
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nexter wrote:
Not sure if this is beta related, but encountered a real oddity yesterday. When setting up a new alarm, the scroll buttons for the time/dates etc. work the wrong way round, that is, the lower (down) ones increase and the upper (up) ones decrease!


Ooops. :oops: It's like that everywhere.

Because that's actually a scroll bar and not a real spin control, I assumed the down button would increase the value (like a scroll bar does). But now that you alerted me I went and read the MS guidelines for the real spin control and they do say "Define the top button to increase the value by one unit and the bottom button to decrease by one unit."

This, however, goes against the way scroll bars work.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:02 am 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Not sure if this is beta related, but encountered a real oddity yesterday. When setting up a new alarm, the scroll buttons for the time/dates etc. work the wrong way round, that is, the lower (down) ones increase and the upper (up) ones decrease!


Ooops. :oops: It's like that everywhere.

Because that's actually a scroll bar and not a real spin control, I assumed the down button would increase the value (like a scroll bar does). But now that you alerted me I went and read the MS guidelines for the real spin control and they do say "Define the top button to increase the value by one unit and the bottom button to decrease by one unit."

This, however, goes against the way scroll bars work.

Not sure I follow Jorge - proper scroll bars go down to move down and up to go up, surely. (In all other apps they work bottom decreases and top increases....)

Maybe I'm just out of it atm. Pulling my little remaining hair out over this desktop recycler anim. Got the 5-frame WsTrashAni.png file, 48px images (same size as the in-shelf recycler files), and a 64px WsTrashE.png desktop background, and the wsr file configured with number of frames and interval in ms. OK, reload theme, blank background is shown on desktop but no icon! If I remove the WsTrashE.png and restart the theme, the 48px WsTrashES.png is shown on the desktop, but blown up to a very ugly 128px - but the desktop anim works as expected in this scenario. I've tried all sorts of things but getting nowhere.

Any ideas what's gone wrong, any suggestions? Desperate! Would be nice to keep a little bit of hair under my hat. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:51 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Not sure I follow Jorge - proper scroll bars go down to move down and up to go up, surely.


Yeah, but you're thinking in terms of direction. Internally, when you press the down arrow a value INCREASES. Think of it like this: the internal value of a scroll bar specifies which line of text is the first *visible* line of text. As you scroll down, that line number keeps changing to a larger value.

So, I scr*wed up, but it has been like this forever and you're the first person to ever point out that this behavior is wrong.

And this also brings us to a related topic that Windy raised in that thread next door, and I think he is right in what concerns this: mouse wheel scrolling on the Shelf. I need you guys opinion.

As you probably noticed, in v18.8 I inverted the order of the icons rows for a multi-row, non-inverted, Shelf docked at the top of the screen.

Before, Row 1 would be at the top (closer to the screen edge) followed by Row 2 which was followed by the tabs.

This is actually wrong, but with the Shelf it only created a visual glitch when collapsing/uncollapsing the Shelf. With the new Drawers this wouldn't work at all, so I was forced to fix this behavior.

So, in v18.8, for a two row Shelf: at the very top you now have Row 2, followed by Row 1, followed by the tabs. So, to access other icon rows, you now have to scroll UP instead of DOWN like before. However, I kept the old mouse wheel scrolling behavior (mouse wheel down scrolls up lol) and I think this might be a mistake.

Stick a Shelf with more than one row of icons in the top screen edge, give it a try, and please let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:59 pm 
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winstep wrote:
And this also brings us to a related topic that Windy raised in that thread next door, and I think he is right in what concerns this: mouse wheel scrolling on the Shelf. I need you guys opinion.

As you probably noticed, in v18.8 I inverted the order of the icons rows for a multi-row, non-inverted, Shelf docked at the top of the screen.

Before, Row 1 would be at the top (closer to the screen edge) followed by Row 2 which was followed by the tabs.

This is actually wrong, but with the Shelf it only created a visual glitch when collapsing/uncollapsing the Shelf. With the new Drawers this wouldn't work at all, so I was forced to fix this behavior.

So, in v18.8, for a two row Shelf: at the very top you now have Row 2, followed by Row 1, followed by the tabs. So, to access other icon rows, you now have to scroll UP instead of DOWN like before. However, I kept the old mouse wheel scrolling behavior (mouse wheel down scrolls up lol) and I think this might be a mistake.

Stick a Shelf with more than one row of icons in the top screen edge, give it a try, and please let me know.

IMO the old way was better and more natural, now if you expand the shelf first row is on the bottom which feels wrong to me


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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:51 pm 
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seeker wrote:
IMO the old way was better and more natural, now if you expand the shelf first row is on the bottom which feels wrong to me


I think that particular aspect of it is just a question of what you got used to in the first place, after using the Shelf for so long.

Previously with the second row at the bottom, when you collapsed the Shelf from two rows to one row (by double clicking the tab header, for instance) the collapse animation would roll the second row + tabs into the space previously occupied by the first row. Once the animation finished, you would be looking at a single row Shelf display the second row + tabs, which is OBVIOUSLY wrong. So, once the animation finished playing, that second row would suddenly be replaced by the first row icons in an abrupt change.

Again, this is wrong.

Now, the roll goes as it is intended: because the first row is at the bottom of the Shelf next to the tabs, once the collapsing animation finishes all the icons are exactly where they are supposed to be.

I had already noticed this 'glitch' a long time ago, but I did nothing about it until it actually became necessary.

You see, all those horizontal icons in a Drawer docked to the left side of the screen may look like a SINGLE horizontal row of several icons, but what they ACTUALLY are (in terms of how they are handled internally so Shelves and Drawers can use the same code for mostly everything) is MULTIPLE rows, each row made up of a single icon. Makes sense?

This is why it became necessary to fix the original glitchy behavior, otherwise the first icon of a drawer would appear at the base of the drawer instead of right next to the tabs as it should.

Now, what I tend to agree with Windy is only regarding mousewheel scrolling - since the order of rows got changed for Shelves at the top of the screen, then the direction the mousewheel scrolls should perhaps be changed as well for THAT particular case.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:11 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Not sure I follow Jorge - proper scroll bars go down to move down and up to go up, surely.

Yeah, but you're thinking in terms of direction. Internally, when you press the down arrow a value INCREASES. Think of it like this: the internal value of a scroll bar specifies which line of text is the first *visible* line of text. As you scroll down, that line number keeps changing to a larger value.

So, I scr*wed up, but it has been like this forever and you're the first person to ever point out that this behavior is wrong.

Right, with you now Jorge. :) But of course, in this context it feels totally wrong and it's odd no-one noticed before. I normally just type a new value into the box but thought I should try this as I hadn't done so before.

Any suggestions re: my desktop trash anim as explained in my last post btw? I'm totally exasperated and at a complete loss.
winstep wrote:
And this also brings us to a related topic that Windy raised in that thread next door, and I think he is right in what concerns this: mouse wheel scrolling on the Shelf. I need you guys opinion.

As you probably noticed, in v18.8 I inverted the order of the icons rows for a multi-row, non-inverted, Shelf docked at the top of the screen.

Before, Row 1 would be at the top (closer to the screen edge) followed by Row 2 which was followed by the tabs.

This is actually wrong, but with the Shelf it only created a visual glitch when collapsing/uncollapsing the Shelf. With the new Drawers this wouldn't work at all, so I was forced to fix this behavior.

So, in v18.8, for a two row Shelf: at the very top you now have Row 2, followed by Row 1, followed by the tabs. So, to access other icon rows, you now have to scroll UP instead of DOWN like before. However, I kept the old mouse wheel scrolling behavior (mouse wheel down scrolls up lol) and I think this might be a mistake.

Stick a Shelf with more than one row of icons in the top screen edge, give it a try, and please let me know.


I can't really see much wrong with it as is. Feels natural enough and I did it right first time quite instinctively even before the issue was raised. Think of it this way: Row 1 goes down, 'below' the tabs as it were, and Row 2 comes down.

OTOH, the previous arrangement seems the more logical actually, with Row 2 'coming up' from below the tabs as it were and therefore becoming the 1st row above the tabs.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:17 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Any suggestions re: my desktop trash anim as explained in my last post btw? I'm totally exasperated and at a complete loss.


You will have to send me the theme to the Winstep support address. The Recycler module was one of the first modules to be implemented, which makes it 18 years old. It's a bit of a mess with all the changes it had to endure over time.

nexter wrote:
OTOH, the previous arrangement seems the more logical actually, with Row 2 'coming up' from below the tabs as it were and therefore becoming the 1st row above the tabs.


I already explained above why this wouldn't do, and that part is set in stone (if you flip an Explorer window upside down, what was previously the icon row at the top now becomes the icon row at the bottom, just like with a Shelf at the top).

What isn't set in stone is the behavior of the mousewheel. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:56 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Any suggestions re: my desktop trash anim as explained in my last post btw? I'm totally exasperated and at a complete loss.

You will have to send me the theme to the Winstep support address. The Recycler module was one of the first modules to be implemented, which makes it 18 years old. It's a bit of a mess with all the changes it had to endure over time.

Thanks Jorge, will do. You're going to save my vanishing hair! ;)
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
OTOH, the previous arrangement seems the more logical actually, with Row 2 'coming up' from below the tabs as it were and therefore becoming the 1st row above the tabs.

I already explained above why this wouldn't do, and that part is set in stone (if you flip an Explorer window upside down, what was previously the icon row at the top now becomes the icon row at the bottom, just like with a Shelf at the top).

What isn't set in stone is the behavior of the mousewheel. :)

Accepted Jorge, was just expressing my opinion about the feel of it.

As for the mouse scroll wheel action, as I've said before, I'm in favour of leaving it as is.

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:08 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Accepted Jorge, was just expressing my opinion about the feel of it.


Sorry, hope I didn't come across as being upset - I was just making it clear that that is not something I am going to change and pointing out that I had already explained why above. :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:14 pm 
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winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Accepted Jorge, was just expressing my opinion about the feel of it.

Sorry, hope I didn't come across as being upset - I was just making it clear that that is not something I am going to change and pointing out that I had already explained why above. :)

Nah, you didn't Jorge and no need to apologise! :) And I was just pointing out that I was well aware that you had already pointed all that out. :)

Bed for now. Though sleep won't come easy in this darn heat!

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 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:01 am 
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winstep wrote:
seeker wrote:
IMO the old way was better and more natural, now if you expand the shelf first row is on the bottom which feels wrong to me


I think that particular aspect of it is just a question of what you got used to in the first place, after using the Shelf for so long.

Previously with the second row at the bottom, when you collapsed the Shelf from two rows to one row (by double clicking the tab header, for instance) the collapse animation would roll the second row + tabs into the space previously occupied by the first row. Once the animation finished, you would be looking at a single row Shelf display the second row + tabs, which is OBVIOUSLY wrong. So, once the animation finished playing, that second row would suddenly be replaced by the first row icons in an abrupt change.

Again, this is wrong.

Now, the roll goes as it is intended: because the first row is at the bottom of the Shelf next to the tabs, once the collapsing animation finishes all the icons are exactly where they are supposed to be.

I had already noticed this 'glitch' a long time ago, but I did nothing about it until it actually became necessary.

You see, all those horizontal icons in a Drawer docked to the left side of the screen may look like a SINGLE horizontal row of several icons, but what they ACTUALLY are (in terms of how they are handled internally so Shelves and Drawers can use the same code for mostly everything) is MULTIPLE rows, each row made up of a single icon. Makes sense?

This is why it became necessary to fix the original glitchy behavior, otherwise the first icon of a drawer would appear at the base of the drawer instead of right next to the tabs as it should.

Now, what I tend to agree with Windy is only regarding mousewheel scrolling - since the order of rows got changed for Shelves at the top of the screen, then the direction the mousewheel scrolls should perhaps be changed as well for THAT particular case.


Jorge, so what you're saying is because of the drawer feature, the old way has to change?

You didn't address my statement in the other thread so I'll pose it as a question and more precisely. It is impossible to make the Shelf icons work in a ascending/descending manner so we can choose which order we want?

BTW, how do I make a drawer? Can't figure it out. Unfortunately, I had my medical episode around the time it was first being talked about and didn't get the chance to know how to do it. :cry:


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