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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:40 am 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
oOSGearOo wrote:
So whats your thoughts on it DesertDwarf?
-:-Edit
Just chip in with a few words they dont have to be as complex ....

Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.

I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

Hey, nice to see you in here DD_Ric! :)
Would be nice if we could have Jorge in on this. Although, I don't think there would be much that could be implemented in Winstep from this - it's too complex and needs multithreading. However, it could become a sort of Winstep replacement/ Winstep - TNG eventually, and Jorge could do that as entirely proprietary but acknowledging the open source of course. (This "thing" would have to be open source basically, though certainly not under a GPL licence - I'd much rather favour some sort of modified BSD - type licence, or perhaps even some kind of proprietary one if we decide to make it a paid-for DE in the end.)

Anyway, hope we'll hear a lot more from you Ric. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:32 am 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
Well That was that Unless someone talks and chats there is no point in going further.

I must like talking to myself, I am in the middle of setting up forums I have to wait while they disentangle my com domain and then I can assign it to the WordPress hosting. Nexter I know you said not to bother but iam doing it anyway in or out.

Ive been looking into C++ taking some baby steps in the language hello world and the like.

So apart from starting out small with maybe rightclick or other mouse events and programs, internal commands...

Iam writing this on linux getting the benefit of a spell checker.

Wondering how you got on with Arcolinux Nexter run up cin... type skell and reboot, its very stable.

I think I've covered just about everything here already today Steve. Sorry you were left to feel like you're talking to yourself. I'll try and come in as and when I can, and hopefully will be better soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Hi both Nexter and Desert dwarf have private messages, keep it private for now guys.
The state off play is that the website is still under construction, also a forum exists.
nexter wrote:
You definitely have a point Steve. I do agree with you. So yes, your setting up a forum on your domain would be the best start then so we could flesh things out. I do have a complete - more or less - plan/outline of the thing (in two stages, the first being compatible even with fairly basic hardware - minimum dual core CPU, 4-8 Gig RAM, etc.), something radically different as I already mentioned, something that would incorporate/integrate functionality of various elements - dock, shelf, grid stacks, start/deskbar, apps menu, custom menus, and more. And yes, definitely cross-platform, though initially probably easiest to get the thing together under Linux (whichever distro we choose in the end) initially. Getting it going under Windows will require a fair lot of alterations to the code as it has to sit on top of Explorer.

I like this and as you say it does not matter what distro we end up going for.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:18 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
Hi both Nexter and Desert dwarf have private messages, keep it private for now guys.
The state off play is that the website is still under construction, also a forum exists.

I'll check pvt msg when done here. Difficult though to keep this discussion going as a discussion in pvt msgs.
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
You definitely have a point Steve. I do agree with you. So yes, your setting up a forum on your domain would be the best start then so we could flesh things out. I do have a complete - more or less - plan/outline of the thing (in two stages, the first being compatible even with fairly basic hardware - minimum dual core CPU, 4-8 Gig RAM, etc.), something radically different as I already mentioned, something that would incorporate/integrate functionality of various elements - dock, shelf, grid stacks, start/deskbar, apps menu, custom menus, and more. And yes, definitely cross-platform, though initially probably easiest to get the thing together under Linux (whichever distro we choose in the end) initially. Getting it going under Windows will require a fair lot of alterations to the code as it has to sit on top of Explorer.

I like this and as you say it does not matter what distro we end up going for.

Well, it does matter, to a point, what distro we end up with. My thinking is, we don't really want to go with one that keeps changing too quickly as it could mean having to adjust the code all the time. Some of the (other) key criteria would be, a compositing window manager, stable kernel version, and more, I think.

Tried briefly to check out various ArcoLinux pages, but alas, got frozen out every time, won't let me on from TOR Browser which is what I use as my main browser. Only for downloads do I slip over to Firefox. (Don't trust any other browsers, not secure and decidedly not private enough.) I'll check again another time when feeling better.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:36 pm 
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oosgearoo wrote:
I like this and as you say it does not matter what distro we end up going for.

nexter wrote:
Well, it does matter, to a point, what distro we end up with. My thinking is, we don't really want to go with one that keeps changing too quickly as it could mean having to adjust the code all the time. Some of the (other) key criteria would be, a compositing window manager, stable kernel version, and more, I think.

Keys: I get that, composting window manager and stable Kernel, so are you wanting to do/go for something as far back as Debian ultra stable an Cinnamon keen on GnuLinx not sure if we want to grab or go as far as Debian though!??


nexter wrote:
Tried briefly to check out various ArcoLinux pages, but alas, got frozen out every time, won't let me on from TOR Browser which is what I use as my main browser. Only for downloads do I slip over to Firefox. (Don't trust any other browsers, not secure and decidedly not private enough.) I'll check again another time when feeling better.

Yup there are a lot of pages to look at however there is also the download pages/site maybe a look in Firefox wonted be to bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:11 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
oosgearoo wrote:
I like this and as you say it does not matter what distro we end up going for.

nexter wrote:
Well, it does matter, to a point, what distro we end up with. My thinking is, we don't really want to go with one that keeps changing too quickly as it could mean having to adjust the code all the time. Some of the (other) key criteria would be, a compositing window manager, stable kernel version, and more, I think.

Keys: I get that, composting window manager and stable Kernel, so are you wanting to do/go for something as far back as Debian ultra stable an Cinnamon keen on GnuLinx not sure if we want to grab or go as far as Debian though!??

Oh not necessarily Debian, another that immediately springs to mind could be Fedora. Almost as old, but using the more recent 5.x kernel. Another consideration is, we want to attract as many users as possible with the finished (or even part finished) article, and just for that even we'd have to stick with one of the more widely popular distros, at least initially. (Although I would be inclined to exclude any kind of Ubuntu flavour or spin-off.) The desktop environment is fairly immaterial as we'll be developing our own of course. GNU/Linux is merely the proper term for any OS based on the Linux kernel, inc. Arch and ArcoLinux.
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Tried briefly to check out various ArcoLinux pages, but alas, got frozen out every time, won't let me on from TOR Browser which is what I use as my main browser. Only for downloads do I slip over to Firefox. (Don't trust any other browsers, not secure and decidedly not private enough.) I'll check again another time when feeling better.

Yup there are a lot of pages to look at however there is also the download pages/site maybe a look in Firefox wonted be to bad.

Had a quick glance at one of the sites but not too informative from what I could see - will investigate more.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:09 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Oh not necessarily Debian, another that immediately springs to mind could be Fedora. Almost as old, but using the more recent 5.x kernel. Another consideration is, we want to attract as many users as possible with the finished (or even part finished) article, and just for that even we'd have to stick with one of the more widely popular distros, at least initially. (Although I would be inclined to exclude any kind of Ubuntu flavour or spin-off.) The desktop environment is fairly immaterial as we'll be developing our own of course. GNU/Linux is merely the proper term for any OS based on the Linux kernel, inc. Arch and ArcoLinux.

Iam cool with Debian/Fedora... as you say though not Ubuntu based I agree to much hassle.
The desktop environment then you say wont matter but we have to develop on a platform of some description we cant program on nothing. I think Ive mentioned it, Iam KDE/Plasma based, where I would like to start out this venture, I understand it and prefer it.

nexter wrote:
Tried briefly to check out various ArcoLinux pages, but alas, got frozen out every time...
Had a quick glance at one of the sites but not too informative from what I could see - will investigate more.


Well at ArcoLinux they like you to learn, the head is an academic an if you ask a question that's not been covered before he makes a YouTube vid about it usually. So the channel on the internet has all the answers,

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:33 pm 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.

I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.


Well Im stuck Ive stopped developing, as jonney5 said "Need Input" I have sent you both msg's the new home needs polish ok there is a forum in the new home ready, for input.


Nexter wrote:
n-Ric calling DD_Ric, Paul/vectornut, Windy? Anybody!

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:45 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Oh not necessarily Debian, another that immediately springs to mind could be Fedora. Almost as old, but using the more recent 5.x kernel. Another consideration is, we want to attract as many users as possible with the finished (or even part finished) article, and just for that even we'd have to stick with one of the more widely popular distros, at least initially. (Although I would be inclined to exclude any kind of Ubuntu flavour or spin-off.) The desktop environment is fairly immaterial as we'll be developing our own of course. GNU/Linux is merely the proper term for any OS based on the Linux kernel, inc. Arch and ArcoLinux.

Iam cool with Debian/Fedora... as you say though not Ubuntu based I agree to much hassle.
The desktop environment then you say wont matter but we have to develop on a platform of some description we cant program on nothing. I think Ive mentioned it, Iam KDE/Plasma based, where I would like to start out this venture, I understand it and prefer it.

When I say the DE is not that important, I mean any that sits on a window manager that is suitable and using Wayland, rather than purely X Windows. So basically, we would need a fairly popular distro aimed at users (at least, to some degree - few really are and some are downright developers' wet dreams more than anything), that uses Wayland, and with a window manager that's suitable for our aims, and a DE that's sympathetic to our aims. On that basis, I'd be open to just about anything. I've tried, at least briefly, all major distros except OpenSuse I think and also some of the lesser ones. I have enough hard disk space on two machines - one an elderly AMD X64 dual core with 5 GB RAM which runs any distro I've thrown at it with no problems and now has Fedora (though not with Mate-Compiz), Debian and Mint as well as Windows 7 - at the moment to install whatever we eventually decide on and multi-boot.

However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for. To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Tried briefly to check out various ArcoLinux pages, but alas, got frozen out every time...
Had a quick glance at one of the sites but not too informative from what I could see - will investigate more.

Well at ArcoLinux they like you to learn, the head is an academic an if you ask a question that's not been covered before he makes a YouTube vid about it usually. So the channel on the internet has all the answers,

Ah, that explains a lot - academic... As for YouTube - never use it (don't think TOR would get through anyway) as it's Google owned (security and privacy are top of my computing priorities) and anyway really can't be arsed with watching videos these days, takes up far too much precious time generally speaking.

Anyway, shall look at ArcoLinux some more as on a personal level it interests me.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:50 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.

I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

Well Im stuck Ive stopped developing, as jonney5 said "Need Input" I have sent you both msg's the new home needs polish ok there is a forum in the new home ready, for input.
Nexter wrote:
n-Ric calling DD_Ric, Paul/vectornut, Windy? Anybody!

As per my PM earlier, will look into it some more and try to contribute, though not easy at this stage esp. as not familiar with what Wordpress can do/support etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:00 pm 
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nexter wrote:
oOSGearOo wrote:
DesertDwarf wrote:
Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.

I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

Well Im stuck Ive stopped developing, as jonney5 said "Need Input" I have sent you both msg's the new home needs polish ok there is a forum in the new home ready, for input.
Nexter wrote:
n-Ric calling DD_Ric, Paul/vectornut, Windy? Anybody!

As per my PM earlier, will look into it some more and try to contribute, though not easy at this stage esp. as not familiar with what Wordpress can do/support etc.

Throw it in there if it can be done we will make it do it, if not then we will have to compromise. You have PM's N_Ric hope they help.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:34 pm 
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nexter wrote:
When I say the DE is not that important, I mean any that sits on a window manager that is suitable and using Wayland, rather than purely X Windows. So basically, we would need a fairly popular distro aimed at users (at least, to some degree - few really are and some are downright developers' wet dreams more than anything), that uses Wayland, and with a window manager that's suitable for our aims, and a DE that's sympathetic to our aims.


Are you thinking of forking an desktop, or going from scratch?

Nexter wrote:
On that basis, I'd be open to just about anything. I've tried at least briefly, all major distros except OpenSuse I think and also some of the lesser ones. I have enough hard disk space on two machines - one an elderly AMD X64 dual core with 5 GB RAM which runs any distro I've thrown at it with no problems and now has Fedora (though not with Mate-Compiz), Debian and Mint as well as Windows 7 - at the moment to install whatever we eventually decide on and multi-boot.

Win7 hmm old hat iam on win10/Arch/and a test-bench for the beta's of Arcolinux-/-also have a server running Arcolinux as well but that has not been fired up for 3-4 month.

Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for.

To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.
Yes we will settle in and do a summary and everything Iam slightly lost when you talk about wayland via X X is all I know. Of to read your pm.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:18 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
When I say the DE is not that important, I mean any that sits on a window manager that is suitable and using Wayland, rather than purely X Windows. So basically, we would need a fairly popular distro aimed at users (at least, to some degree - few really are and some are downright developers' wet dreams more than anything), that uses Wayland, and with a window manager that's suitable for our aims, and a DE that's sympathetic to our aims.

Are you thinking of forking an desktop, or going from scratch?

Oh no, definitely not forking - our DE will have to be completely new and from scratch.
oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
..... - one an elderly AMD X64 dual core with 5 GB RAM which runs any distro I've thrown at it with no problems and now has Fedora .... as well as Windows 7 - .....

Win7 hmm old hat iam on win10/Arch/and a test-bench for the beta's of Arcolinux-/-also have a server running Arcolinux as well but that has not been fired up for 3-4 month.

LOL! Yeah, it is a bit but it runs one or two old apps that Win10 won't. My main state-of-the-artish machine runs Win 10 Enterprise in a VM under Fedora, and on my laptop I've got Win 10 Pro multi-booting with Debian and Fedora, though intending to move Win 10 to a VM here too. (Which will be the end of Ubuntu, which runs in a VM in Win 10.)

oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for.

To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.
Yes we will settle in and do a summary and everything Iam slightly lost when you talk about wayland via X X is all I know. Of to read your pm.

Wayland still passes some calls to X Windows but basically is far more efficient than X Win and should not be too long until it will be able to replace X fully. (I would have thought ArcoLinux uses Wayland? Haven't got that far yet.)

Yeah, summary etc. won't be much of a problem really when we get to that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:03 pm 
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nexter wrote:
that uses Wayland, and with a window manager that's suitable for our aims, and a DE that's sympathetic to our aims.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Are you thinking of forking an desktop, or going from scratch?

nexter wrote:
Oh no, definitely not forking - our DE will have to be completely new and from scratch.


Thats a tall order thinking about it I know nothing of course, but wayland DE unforked O-o

Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for.

To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.
well once your well enough I look forward to this input you seem to have done well enough for now anyway.

Nexter wrote:
Wayland still passes some calls to X Windows but basically is far more efficient than X Win and should not be too long until it will be able to replace X fully. (I would have thought ArcoLinux uses Wayland? Haven't got that far yet.)

It probably does do it that way I just use the finished product.

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 Post subject: Re: Apropos "Abandonware", ETC.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:19 pm 
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oOSGearOo wrote:
nexter wrote:
Oh no, definitely not forking - our DE will have to be completely new and from scratch.

Thats a tall order thinking about it I know nothing of course, but wayland DE unforked O-o

Wayland is just the GFX sub-system of the OS, or GFX manager - a replacement for X Windows. (The basic structure of a GNU/Linux OS, from the bottom up, is - Linux kernel -> basic OS inc X Windows/Wayland -> window manager -> Desktop Environment.) What we'd be replacing would be the DE that's already sitting on top of the window manager. There's no other way of doing this under Linux. That's why things like third party docks e.g. never really got anywhere - they're basically a hack.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
However, before deciding on matters of distro etc., I think we should be clear about exactly what we are aiming for.

To make this a bit easier and a bit more structured, I could extract a basic, abbreviated architecture design from my overall architecture once I'm well enough again. Perhaps at that point we could start a forum for this on your site and first do a summary of the discussion thus far.

well once your well enough I look forward to this input you seem to have done well enough for now anyway.

I'll try and keep it as simple as possible. For now I still have to mostly rest but shouldn't be too much longer.

oOSGearOo wrote:
Nexter wrote:
Wayland still passes some calls to X Windows but basically is far more efficient than X Win and should not be too long until it will be able to replace X fully. (I would have thought ArcoLinux uses Wayland? Haven't got that far yet.)

It probably does do it that way I just use the finished product.

I'm pretty sure it must do. Being sort of bleeding edge you wouldn't want to be stuck with something as archaic as X. :)

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