Doubts have been expressed in another thread concerning the future of Winstep. Actually, it is a good time to think/talk about the future.

Windows is moving more and more towards integration with Linux (mainly for the benefit of developers, inc. MS's own) and away from the desktop. Understandable, given that the desktop has been a shrinking market for quite some time. A majority of consumers already tend to use 'smartphones' and/or tablets only. Consequently, the potential market for Winstep is also very much smaller than it was say, 15-20 years ago. At the same time, among desktop users still left, more and more slowly either switch to Linux or even start out with it. Granted, the numbers are still pretty small when compared to Windows but nonetheless, it's a growing movement. And there are now even commercial Linux distros and a slowly growing number of commercial apps etc.

I have little doubt that a time will come when MS will cease to provide support for Win32 apps in Windows and possibly abandon the consumer desktop altogether. Somehow, I cannot see Winstep providing a secure and reasonable pension/supplementary pension or even any for that matter for Jorge.

I would suggest that maybe it is a good time to think forward and look at doing something new, while continuing development of Winstep at a perhaps slower pace, concentrating on outstanding problems/bugs.

And no, I'm not talking about some sort of 64-bit Winstep for Linux. Time has moved on, it really is time to look at different paradigms and metaphors. My thinking would be an easily portable 64-bit app that provides the user with a simple, easy to use and fully configurable desktop environment/user interface that combines some of the elements of Winstep (but in a completely new form) and adds in some new elements. By portable, I mean that it could be made available for Windows, Windows tablets, Android tablets, and perhaps Mac. This could easily be achieved by making it open source but with commercial/proprietary restrictions and bringing in volunteer developers to be paid through donations/sponsorship. I've not spoken of a Linux port yet, because for Linux, the core of this would need to be expanded into a full Linux desktop environment and preferably even provide its own window manager. And that would definitely require a team of dedicated open source developers. But then, things seem to increasingly be moving towards a hybrid open source - proprietary model, often funded through sponsorship and/or donations as well as sales.

Anyway, just one way, my way of thinking.

What do others think?

I am a bit sorry to have started that, but to be brutal I havent YET!! seen a responce to it, no reply from Jorge(expected) this is a close to it I have seen and not from Jorge. I am sure Jorge is perfecting the new version whatever that end number ends up being.



Engaging in Linux programing / apps thats where I have been for over a year now. I got a new small form facter pc that came with windows on it hence me bying a copy again from Jorge/winstep. If Jorge was to develop an item for the OS on the other side then I for one would be delighted to run it. Most if not all the docks have hit the buffer in Linux and are for at least one I know off not developed anymore.


Doing something new would have a responce, I dont know why the pace has slowed but part of the payment is for more development. MS is moving forward and multi tasking is where its at they have moved to a free desktop enviroment embracing more and more of the free inux enviroment as it goes.



I am certainly thinking of the nexus, and shelves(main) being an ideal candidate for cross platform generation.


Hmm new form, New yes form...... certainly the power of shelf would be intresting to see.


Hmm you go on to mention Linux however Android is based around the ideas of........ Mac I am against that ethos, I have not been envolved with mac or seen their products for a while however I would be against being tied down which is at the essence of said ..........




I welcome youre thoughts on linux "Nexter" I think that along with the other portions mentiond above(OS's) that the Next-start is one and only one that whould not fit in(so well), the other parts of xtreem would/should be able to be cross platform idea. I would be keen on testing and helping out on the linux/windows/android platforms that I now presently own and work with on a daily base's.


One way off thinking I like the idea of what you perpose "Nexter" Ive carved up your post inserting my own Ideas/and thoughts. What I would derarly love is the orther's responce to this. I am a programer at heart and would welcome getting in on somthing like this. Programing alongside with an highly experienced programer as head/lead.

I think that it would not be hard to do. I have experience only on the linux side of things and can see how easy it would be to take/fork a few programs and make something worth while out off it. Quite how to do it one whould have only to look at a few githubs and adapt. I have dabled with ideas and thoughts above my head but something has to happen here. Jorge!!

Hey Steve, thanks for chipping in with your thoughts - and for, in a way, getting this actually started - discussion, it seems to me, is what is sorely needed in this context. As for Jorge, let's hope he's just working away like mad. But even then, it's a bit unusual for him to stay away this long...

Well, some Desktop Environments have or had a dock - of sorts - integrated, and certainly Ubuntu still has. But yes, third party ones never really got off the ground properly. I've been running GNU/Linux (as we should properly call it) as my main OS on all three of my machines, principally Debian and Fedora but also Mint, and Ubuntu in a VM in my one remaining Windows 10 bootable partition on one system, for well over a year now, after a hiatus of more than 20 years. On the whole, I'm very used to the interface now - it's hardly fundamentally different from Windows, basically - and find working with Linux a doddle. A far better user experience than off-the-shelf Windows. That is not to say I don't have criticisms of Linux, not by any means, I have many - principally the lack of genuine innovation - but that is not the issue of this discussion.

Indeed. Effectively, Windows is now a two-kernel system with the Ubuntu-flavour Linux kernel and various sub-systems. (Not that Ubuntu is exactly my favourite Linux flavour, I must say, but it works well enough.)

Hmm, yes, something like that could work on all platforms. But I'm thinking of something much more radical, more innovative. Especially so for Linux, where a lot of groundwork already exists to move in new directions - think Wayland, think Compice, for instance. Think different paradigms, different metaphors....

Some aspects of the shelf could be very useful, as indeed could other aspects of the Winstep environment, though with less 'effects' and less emphasis on 'eye candy' - the latter has, generally, lost its attraction for most people anyway. (Sure, the whole thing could, in theory, be completely 'skinnable', with certain restrictions - though skinning is for all intents and purposes dead anyway - but essentially, I would see this as providing say 4-6 standard 'personalities' out of the box.

Yes, of course I'm aware that Android is essentially a Linux flavour. Personally, I don't trust Android (any more than iOS/Mac) because of Google's involvement, but it's a fairly substantial market of course. As for Mac, 'The Dark Side', well, as a former NeXT user I not only still resent how Jobs sold out NeXT users and left us high and dry and never delivered on the promise of a PC version of Openstep 5/MacOS X, but also for what he and his minions at Apple did to the best and most powerful workstation and desktop OS of the time. They effectively crippled it by dumbing it down to the typical Mac user - a pretty dim creature, generally, to buy into the Apple 'gospel' - and 'uglified' it by making it look like Mac so that the Mac sheep wouldn't have to cope with a new interface. But, if there were a potentially lucrative market on the platform, who could argue against that? But that said, on reflection I think the uptake would likely be too small perhaps anyway.

Well, most Linux DEs (Desktop Environments) offer a - usually fully configurable - applications menu or at any rate there are third party options for one. That's not such a big step away from NextSTART, neither is a Deskbar fundamentally different from NextSTART's Taskbar. Although, bear in mind we are talking a fully integrated DE here, and different - at least, in some cases - paradigms/metaphors for a Linux version, Steve. And yes, I too would be quite keen on helping out as well as testing such a Linux DE. I used to do some coding under NeXTStep/Openstep with its Objective C Dev. Environment and especially also interface design, especially also on projects for Openstep for Windows NT. And over the past year or so I've also been playing around a bit with GNU's Objective C.

I think Debian would probably make the best starting point/main anchor for - at first - a new Linux DE, and later a complete new window manager and DE.

Thanks again for your interesting and valued contribution, Steve, and for sensibly breaking it up - so much easier to follow than just quoting a complete post and commenting below. And indeed, I too would be most interested to hear what others think.

n-Ric calling DD_Ric, Paul/vectornut, Windy? Anybody!

I strted out with the idea off quoting you and your comments I got lost in it all u(nexter) quoting me quoting you........ I quote your call at the end.

Well I dont know about Ubuntu, Iam running a cutting edge Arch based system ArcoLinux, basically I am more Kubuntu a kde plasma guy. Debian ah been there, I moved onto KdeNeon(briefly) before moving to ArcoLinux in ever chasing the bells and whistles, rather than being stuck in a stable Debian past.

Thinking on different metaphors/paradigms I have seen a few ideas over time circle docks you name it. The humble rightclick I think is the best idea that is. a mouse has two buttons line up something for the right one or second one to do. you mention Wayland a protocol and Compice a quick scroll through Google dug’up a wiki on wayland but “Compice” I am not sure quite what you meant.

Shelves less effects/Eye candy
Now I dont know something has to look good to flourish, certainly would have to look good. You go on to mention skin-able then let the user put in the eye-candy. I like your idea of personality's variations.

The thing about nextstart is for me as a newcomer to it very startmenu when windows did away with the startmenu or changed it a while back. It would not be needed as you point out on the Gnu/linux as the menu is customizable. Although Ive yet to come across it. hmmm DE or a plug-in for a DE.
Helping out I think we would all jump at it. But I think we would have to first chose the language one that is as cross platform as possible, You mention C or to be more precise “Objective C” I am not sure how that would flourish or work on a windows system, or others. To be truly cross-platform I guess would be assembly based but I would not want to try to program objects in assembly.

Not sure why you think Debian would be a good start, apart from stability. If it was to be Linux/GnuLinux starting place I would not like to tie myself down to something as slow moving as that.

Given the overwhelming response we've seen here and the way this is moving, this might be better placed in the 'Off Topic' section, Jorge? Just while we perhaps look for a more appropriate forum? That is, a Linux based one since that has become the central topic, it would seem - what do you think, Steve?

No problem.

Hmm, Arch - more bleeding edge than leading edge. Been dying to look into ArcoLinux but just haven't had the time. Can't say I ever liked KDE in any of its flavours, not even when it had its rather brief half-arsed flirtation with Compiz.

OK, Wayland is being used by an increasing number of distros, although it still passes some calls to X Windows at present. It really is a long overdue replacement for the antiquated latter. Compiz - I'll get the spelling right one of these days! - is a compositing 3-D window manager, now only available in one distro AFAIK, i.e., Fedora Mate-Compiz. (Ubuntu also used Compiz for its abandoned Unity interface.) It has potential, but would not only need to be moved to Wayland but also extended quite a lot so it could provide a proper 3-D workspace and fully 3-D windows and make full use of modern advanced GFX hardware (with of course a simplified 2-D version for less powerful hardware/smaller displays etc.).

Different paradigms/metaphors - think differently. Totally differently. Everything ought to be totally integrated, for a start. But you certainly could have things that could provide functions akin to those of a dock or shelf or grid boxes. Right mouse button totally hits the nail on the head also - so terribly under-used. I could even make a case for middle mouse button, although they're rare nowadays but most mice have other buttons that can be configured as such.

Moreover, I'm also thinking disability users. To create a new user interface/DE would also mean not forgetting users who are visually impaired. Thus, ultimately, every single functionality/function/command etc. should easily be useable by even a blind person via voice recognition and text-to-speech. This would also be useful for users with other disabilities, e.g. people with limb/digital disabilities etc.


Sure, one would want it to look good. As for skinnable, I don't necessarily mean fully free form skinnable as in present Winstep, but rather that the user would more or less be limited to providing GFX files adhering to a standard interface format. By less effects, I mean no superfluous animation effects, except where they serve a practical purpose, e.g., recycler, elements coming out of hiding, etc. And no such thing as the likes of colourisation and the like, or transparency except that provided by the personality or theme. Provide a good and good looking user interface in the first place and there's no need for all that and have people mess around with it. Although, when it comes to e.g. gadget buttons, the skinner could perhaps choose their positions and use things like mouse-over and different states (e.g. active, inactive, pressed, maximised, normal, rolled up, etc.).


Ah but some kind of start/application menu as a standard option is very useful to have (although the Win 10 style one is worse then useless and the default NextSTART one less than perfect) and that's why some Linux DEs have one as standard or at least there are third party options available. My thinking is, as for GNU/Linux we'd have to have a completely new DE, some sort of app menu should be provided, fully configurable of course. But NextSTART is so much more than that. You can create all kinds of custom menus, assigned to different hotspots, etc. Something like that would be extremely useful. Personally, I use custom menus a lot when I do use Windows. (For some apps I still need to as I still can't seem to find anything like them for Linux - e.g., a GFX app that would let me combine raster and vector layers in the same file without having to merge them, or a decent 'WYSIWYG' html editor (like Dreamweaver), or some specialist music/audio apps.) And of course, things like hotspots, bumpable/swipable screen corners/edges, and the ability to reserve areas of screen space are extremely useful. In many ways, NextSTART is still the most powerful part of Winstep Xtreme actually. And let's not forget internal commands of course. A complete new DE would also need the functionality of some kind of task/deskbar - the NextSTART one again gives pointers to a new direction with its greatly extended capabilities, as do some GNU/Linux deskbars.


Objective C is a fabulous, object-oriented language based on C and was the standard on Nextstep/Openstep - the complete dev environment was a highly visual one and really fab to work with. It was also adopted as the standard for the GNU and GNUstep project (and the GNU dev. environment is also available for Windows). However, I think there would be little choice but to use C++, realistically, with some Python perhaps. Assembly - yeah, great if you get into it early no doubt, but yikes, no, let's not go there.



Well, personally I quite like Debian as one of my 3 favourites ATM. Dead easy to set up and use, and I like the stability. Unlike say Ubuntu which wants to update every five minutes almost, Deb typically only has updates maybe once or twice a week and sometimes less. But why I think it could make a good starting point has several reasons. As one of the oldest and most stable GNU/Linux distros - which in itself commends it for such an enterprise - it would require far less work in having to make new adjustments to the new DE because of changes in the basic distro. Let's not forget also that Deb probably has sprung the single most forks, directly and indirectly. It also developed e.g. an experimental 'port' to FreeBSD and is of course also linked to the GNUstep/GNU HERD project - HERD being a hybrid kernel not unlike Mach. Overall, it seems to me that Debian offers a great deal of flexibility/potential flexibility.

Ultimately, my ideas spring out of one of my kind of (old in origin, about 20 yrs ago, extended/revised a good 10 yrs ago) 'thought experiments' - envisioning a whole new OS that would be scalable to anything and offer the greatest possible security and privacy. Projects like WHOnix and QubeOS show some aspects of this, to a limited extend. The OS I envisioned would make extensive use of machine learning (I hate to use the term 'AI' because at present - and no doubt for a very long time to come - it is a complete misnomer, Artificial Stupidity would come closer, IMO) throughout, and the installer would automatically identify the processor type and other hardware, and initially install just the kernel and hypervisor with basic control centre and then - for servers, mainframes and desktops - give the option of installing the full OS, or any other OS/OSes, in a VM or VMs. Networking would be controlled at the kernel and hypervisor level, using a network akin to TOR but would need to be much faster of course and even more secure. For some connections, this could allow users enabling transmission of real IP/locale when necessary, and enterprise users would have the option of using their own VPNs. There's heaps more - but it's not really important here.

So Steve, what do you think in re: moving this over to a Linux forum? And which should we go to initially if so? Perhaps one of the linux.org ones? Your thoughts, as always, would be appreciated. And BTW, I'm Ric, or n_Ric to differentiate from Desert Dwarf who is DD_Ric.

Will see what Jorge wants to do. I have a domain .com and co.uk website being built. Thinking wordpress plus plugins/plugin for forum can set you up on the admin side when done. What say you to that?


Arcolinux any desktop you want is on the download site just run up a VM Nexter and try it out, far more stable than you may think.

Yes I have more mice than cheese I have ones with extra buttons on them and so on. The middle button is usualy under the scroller.



Agreed.


Objective C or C++ one or the other this is wizzing along, I would like the item to be as crossplatform as possible. I know little about what will compile and run on win/linux/...
One plus is that I have several books on C++





wooo thats some chunk of words.



Well I set out at the start what I have two domains available hows about starting somthing there. Seting you up with email/admin rights ...

That's the main reason I didn't reply.

For the time being - while there's just discussion - I think just moving to a new thread in some fitting Linux developer forum would be sufficient and best Steve. That would also let others come in who might want to be involved. (Although, I think at least initially a fairly small but very active and focused group of developers would be best - no more than a dozen, say.)

I'll look it up some time next week and hope to set it up in a VM (under Fedora) initially. My most used DE these days is Cinnamon, don't like Gnome 3 at all.

On some, yes. On my favourite mouse, it is but doesn't always work, but it has other buttons on the top edge - which makes them easy enough to reach even with the left hand - one of which I've configured as a middle button.



Well, C++ is pretty much universal now and won't be a problem on Windows and Linux, and likewise for Python which can be very useful additionally. So, no problems with cross-platform. (Although of course it's never a simple case of just a straight re-compile.)

LOL! Yeah - something to keep at the back of the mind though, perhaps....
[/quote]
Thanks Steve, very generous offers, but for now, perhaps we ought to just join some Linux developer forum?

Aww....

Starting again nexter quoting oOSgearOo getting in a jumble ile do my best.


I am uncertain as to moving this to some Linux code forum hmm. I don’t know of many straight fitting linux forum Nexter. I understand the desire to have others involved but I like the fact that its just us at the moment. We are in a windows based forum thanks to Jorge if he chooses to move this to off topic then so be it. I think we are uncertain yet as to what kind of venture it is, we/I talk off cross platform something possible rightclickIsh with you talking about srtart programs ..., me thinking about docks grid-stacks customization and the like.



The(ArcoLinux) has all the flavors that u could want, cinnamon being one Ive dabbled with to.


I have a/2/3 mice with 10 or more buttons under the thumb on the mouse. Presently I using a Corsair mouse with just one button under the thumb & configurable RGB ...


As stated above I know off no other Linux forums forums that would be as accommodating and good as old Jorge is being with us here, with a possible move to “off topic”

So whats your thoughts on it DesertDwarf?
-:-Edit
Just chip in with a few words they dont have to be as complex as

Well, first, I like the idea of a discussion board to flesh out our thoughts.

I think a discussion about a new product could be really cool. Even if it doesn't come out as a new product, with Jorge peeking over our shoulders (or even adding his thoughts), there might be new ideas he could implement in Winstep.

So whats your thoughts on it DesertDwarf?
-:-Edit
Just chip in with a few words they dont have to be as complex as


Yes a discussion board I like that maybe Jorge could transfer this to off topic and we could discuss further there, I know Nexter wants to go to an Linux developer forum but I like the idea of ‘Off topic’ preferable to an new forum where strangers may stop by.
With the idea as you say Jorge may want to chip in, add comments or try implementing it in Winstep.

Well That was that Unless someone talks and chats there is no point in going further.

I must like talking to myself, I am in the middle of setting up forums I have to wait while they disentangle my com domain and then I can assign it to the WordPress hosting. Nexter I know you said not to bother but iam doing it anyway in or out.

Ive been looking into C++ taking some baby steps in the language hello world and the like.

So apart from starting out small with maybe rightclick or other mouse events and programs, internal commands...

Iam writing this on linux getting the benefit of a spell checker.

Wondering how you got on with Arcolinux Nexter run up cin... type skell and reboot, its very stable.

Sorry I'm so late coming back, been and am unwell.


You definitely have a point Steve. I do agree with you. So yes, your setting up a forum on your domain would be the best start then so we could flesh things out. I do have a complete - more or less - plan/outline of the thing (in two stages, the first being compatible even with fairly basic hardware - minimum dual core CPU, 4-8 Gig RAM, etc.), something radically different as I already mentioned, something that would incorporate/integrate functionality of various elements - dock, shelf, grid stacks, start/deskbar, apps menu, custom menus, and more. And yes, definitely cross-platform, though initially probably easiest to get the thing together under Linux (whichever distro we choose in the end) initially. Getting it going under Windows will require a fair lot of alterations to the code as it has to sit on top of Explorer.

On one of my Fedora installations I use Mate Compiz DE - just for fun. As for ArcoLinux, I'll get onto that when I feel better again. This is the first time I've used a computer in almost a week, and as soon as I'm done here I'll power down again and go back to resting.

Like I said, I very much favour making extensive use of right and perhaps middle button.

Well, I could think of several Linux/-related forums where we could fit in. But, yes for now let's go with your plan. Oh, and Jorge is a surprisingly young man still, actually.
And we should definitely be moved to 'Off Topic' for now, if Jorge will still have us....

Oh, and Steve, feel free to call me Ric (or N_Ric, to distinguish me from the 'other' Ric, DD_Ric).