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 Post subject: Vista Problems
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:12 am 
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Is anybody having any? At first, I couldn't get the percentages to show up on the CPU meter but after rebooting and re-installing a couple of times it now seems to be okay. My Net Meter, though, doesn't work anymore at all. Is there anything special I need to do? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:00 am 
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Gregory, what version of Windows Vista are you using? RC1? RC2? RTM?

Also, is the UAC turned on or off?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:14 pm 
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I'm using Ultimate and the UAC is on.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:02 am 
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I'm using Ultimate and I too have no percentages on the CPU meter. There is an overall percentage but all of the individual items show as zero. I'm not sure what UAC is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:06 am 
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TheDude20165 wrote:
I'm using Ultimate and I too have no percentages on the CPU meter. There is an overall percentage but all of the individual items show as zero. I'm not sure what UAC is.


User Access Control

It's Vista's new security feature.

It can be turned off.

here's a MS blog on it:

http://blogs.msdn.com/tims/archive/2006 ... g-uac.aspx


cef100


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:24 pm 
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But should it be turned off?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:03 pm 
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Gregory2001 wrote:
But should it be turned off?


In the end that's your personal decision.

It reduces security, for certain and stimulates any number of annoying prompts.

(See Apples new very humerous, though exagerated, Ad campaign)

You might try uniinstalling WinStep turning off the UAC, reinstalling Winstep and then turning the UAC back on to see if that helps.


Again, it's up to you. I'm certain Jorge is working on dealing with it, he needs our feedback though.


cef100


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:19 pm 
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I'm in the middle of replying, but it's going to be a looooong article (there are many issues involved). Should finish the article in a couple of hours.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Quote:
But should it be turned off?


Hmmm... No. Yes. No. Errr...

To put it as simply as I can: the UAC is there to cover your back. Unfortunately it does so at the expense of your own freedom, i.e.; by severely limiting what you (or, in this case, your applications) can and cannot do. How much of this you are willing to put up with for your own protection is really up to you.

Personally I think the current implementation of the UAC in Vista is pretty much brain damaged. With it enabled, you will find that a LOT of your applications will fail to run properly on Vista or even not at all.

Before Vista, logging in as the Admin meant all the applications you run had Admin rights as well, and therefore could do anything they damn well pleased. In Vista, this is no longer true: all applications run in 'normal' privilege mode, which means they are NOT able to do stuff reserved for Admins such as changing the system time, deleting stuff from Program Files, writing to the HKLM branch of the Windows Registry, etc..., UNLESS they explicitly request to be elevated to Admin privileges. This permission can only be given by the user, so, when an application requests to be elevated, you get the UAC prompt.

So far so good, since this, in theory, would prevent malware from silently taking over your system. But there are LOTS of problems with the current MS approach at enforcing this level of security, because too many small, at first sight innocuous, actions require Admin privileges.

For instance, you can not change the clock/time without Admin privileges. An application cannot change nor delete stuff from it's own folder under Program Files. An application running at admin privilege level is blocked from receiving input by applications running at lower privilege levels. Worse, there is NO mechanism to lower your own privilege level once it has been elevated: an application cannot ask for Admin privileges, do its stuff, and then fall back to the normal privilege level (or vice-versa, for that matter). Applications launched by another ALWAYS inherit the parent's privilege level - they can request to go higher, but NOT lower. Applications that require admin privileges (and would thus generate a UAC prompt) are BLOCKED from running at system startup.

What does this mean in practice, giving real life examples?

For the Clock module in Winstep Xtreme to sync the time with the Atomic time servers on the Internet, it needs admin privileges. Same thing for something as stupid as getting info on how much CPU percentage is being used by each process (CPU Meter). Themes are stored in the \Program Files\Winstep\Themes\ folder - without admin privileges, Xtreme is not able to change theme settings files there, nor save *any* info to its own folder. The NextSTART taskbar is perfectly capable of minimizing, restoring, etc, windows of applications running at normal privilege levels (Explorer runs at this level, by the way) but it CANNOT TOUCH windows of applications running at higher privilege levels (such as minimized UAC prompts!).

Undoubtedly other problems will surface as more testing is done with Winstep Xtreme running under Windows Vista, but these are enough to understand the issues...

According to the above, it would make sense to run Winstep Xtreme with admin privileges from the get go, right? Wrong! And wrong for several reasons:

Xtreme needs to run at system startup. Since all applications that require admin privileges to run are blocked at startup, this would obviously not work. Xtreme cannot start itself with normal privilege levels and then later ask to be elevated either, simply because applications cannot change their own privilege level after launch.

But there is more: an application running with high privileges cannot receive input from lower privilege applications (such as Explorer). With Xtreme running with admin privileges, this would result in gems such as you being unable to drag & drop files from Explorer to Xtreme!!!

Furthermore, since there is no mechanism in Vista to 'mark' an application so the user doesn't get the UAC prompt every time they run it (as you can do with Firewalls and programs attempting to access the Internet) this would also mean that the user would get a UAC prompt every time they tried to run Winstep Xtreme. Not good for a suite of applications designed to be running every time you start Windows!

So, since given the above it is a bad idea for Winstep Xtreme to require admin privileges, ANY actions performed by Xtreme that require admin privileges will have to be done by launching a separate application with elevated privileges. Little things like the clock module synchronizing the system time will now present the user with a UAC prompt.

For the NextSTART taskbar to drive input to other applications, regardless of their privilege level, Xtreme executables MUST be digitally signed (which means Winstep must purchase a certificate from Microsoft every year, good for them!) AND Xtreme MUST be installed in a trusted location like c:\Program Files\ (the user will no longer be able to install Xtreme where they please on their hard drive).

Furthermore, since files in the Winstep folder inside \Program Files\ are now read-only to Xtreme, this means all themes and any user changeable data must be stored somewhere else, like in a sub-folder of 'My Documents' or 'Application Data'. The problem is that the 'My Documents' folder is a per-user folder (log in as another user and all your downloaded themes are 'gone'). On the other hand, the 'Application Data' folder is hidden from the user, so he can't just open the folder and browse his theme files without first changing some settings in Explorer.

These are just a few of the problems Winstep is working on resolving so Winstep Xtreme has full functionality under Windows Vista this Spring. It should be enough to give you an idea of the mess Microsoft managed to create with their half baked UAC.

As it currently is, Winstep Xtreme runs correctly under Windows Vista, but with some problems here and there as some of you have already noticed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:03 pm 
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Extremely well stated Jorge, thank you for the detailed insight to the issues presented by Vista's UAC.

I don't see my commercial customer base heading to Vista for at least 2 years do to the impact much of this has on Commercial Vertical Market Software deveopment.

It took many venders almost 18 months to certify XP Pro sp2.

One vender had to skip over Windows 2000 sp3 entirely and we all waited almost 24 months for their certification to be able to go to sp4.

Least anyone think differently, these are all MS Gold Certified Software Development Partners with fairly large development teams.

It illistrats the problems that all software developers face trying to bring quality software to end users; no small task even for the most robustly staffed software houses.

As an aside the printer driver for an Epson CX11NF was just released 2/7, and our HP 9650 wide form factor printer isn't supported at all; nor will it be per HPO's site, which illistrates the hardware driver support issues involved as well.

If we can be of assistance testing WSx as you go, please don't hesitate to ask - we have an activated lab install of Vista Business RTM.



Many thanks Jorge !

cef100


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:47 pm 
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So, will there be an update or are we going to wait for a MS update? Just curious. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:24 am 
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TheDude20165 wrote:
So, will there be an update or are we going to wait for a MS update? Just curious. :)

I'm not sure you understand. There's nothing Jorge can do. Microsoft has to change the way UAC works, or you have to disable UAC.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:52 pm 
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Not really, Paul, there are solutions for everything. Since Microsoft plays the cards (at least for now), software developers have no choice but to adapt or die.

I'm currently trying to identify all the Winstep Xtreme issues under Vista. Some, like the NextSTART taskbar problem, will be solved by purchasing a digital certificate from Microsoft and signing the code. Others will be solved by working around the problems and coming up with the best, even if less than ideal, solution.

Hopefully a Winstep Xtreme version 100% compatible with Vista will be released in the Spring. I'm sure Microsoft, in the mean time, is also evaluating all the damage the current UAC implementation is doing, and coming up with some sort of solution for Vista SP1.

Until then, if any users run into a Xtreme/Vista issue, please post your experiences in here.

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