Winstep

Software Technologies


 Winstep Forums


Print view
Board index : Winstep Forums : General Discussion  [ 388 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 26  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
winstep wrote:
DOH! Bug in v18.5: deleting an item from the Shelf with auto-hide enabled results in the Shelf collapsing while the delete animation is still playing and then popping up as if it was expanded (but isn't).

Well, just a minor 'buglet' really.... :)

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:28 pm
Posts: 147
A warm hello to the hundreds of users that are active on this forum: Jorge, Nexter, Seeker... Have I forgot anyone? lol
Well, I must admit that I am not very active either. Sorry! :(
About the Shelfs, I have noticed that you needed some input Jorge, but that is all in the past now.
Anyway, keep up the good work Jorge! I am preparing for a short vacantion, maybe I will get some extra time to post, if you think of something that could benefit from user input and you post it.
It will also help me if you would detail what is your plan for shelfs, where you what to take this ideea. I can`t say that I can wrap my head around this concept completely... I see some of the benefits and I think it is cool but that is it. Hard to have a clear picture of what vertical and multiple shelfs really means.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:40 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
Vlad wrote:
A warm hello to the hundreds of users that are active on this forum: Jorge, Nexter, Seeker... Have I forgot anyone? lol


LOL! :)

Vlad wrote:
I am preparing for a short vacantion


Have fun! :D Mine won't be for another month or so.

Vlad wrote:
It will also help me if you would detail what is your plan for shelfs, where you what to take this ideea. I can`t say that I can wrap my head around this concept completely... I see some of the benefits and I think it is cool but that is it. Hard to have a clear picture of what vertical and multiple shelfs really means.


Well, personally I wouldn't use more than one Shelf, much in the same way I don't use more than one dock. Others (Seeker, for instance) use a TON of docks - different people, different strokes, and the fact that you CAN if you want to is the important thing.

It's something that has been on the to-do list for years, and it also opens the door for other things (for instance, true high DPI support/scaling for the Shelf was a direct result of this change) including that 'Drawers' idea I already discussed here which will also be a possibility with the vertical Shelves.

There aren't many more things left in my to-do list, and crossing this one off is a major step. Other things are NextSTART taskbars per monitor/VDM, multiple instance modules, the Theme Manager and, perhaps, also Stack docklet support.

Once all that has been accomplished the only thing left to do will be minor improvements (e.g. bloatware lol), which opens the door to start working on other major application(s) and to start diversifying a bit.

And just in time because... in 2019 Winstep will be 20 years old. That's quite a respectful age for a software company eheh.

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:51 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
nexter wrote:
Well, just a minor 'buglet' really.... :)


I H-A-T-E buglets. lol

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
Vlad wrote:
A warm hello to the hundreds of users that are active on this forum: Jorge, Nexter, Seeker... Have I forgot anyone? lol

LOLOL!
Vlad wrote:
Well, I must admit that I am not very active either. Sorry! :(

Oh I don't know, you seem one of the few who do post yourself, Vlad. So add yourself to that *very long* list above.... ;)

As for shelves, multiple and vertical, I too would not have more than one shelf or dock in use, but diff'rent strokes and all that. :) But what I've been dead keen on for twenty years is a vertical shelf - and even more so now as we've mostly been landed with these horrible 16:9 widescreen monitors that have so much more available space at the sides and so little vertically. So it will be fantastic to be able to have a dock at one side, and a shelf at the other of the screen, leaving the precious vertical bits more free. (Just imagine turning the shelf 90 degrees clockwise or anticlockwise, but with the icons facing the right way up with their labels below them - get the idea? :) )

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
winstep wrote:
Vlad wrote:
.... It will also help me if you would detail what is your plan for shelfs, where you what to take this ideea. I can`t say that I can wrap my head around this concept completely... I see some of the benefits and I think it is cool but that is it. Hard to have a clear picture of what vertical and multiple shelfs really means.

Well, personally I wouldn't use more than one Shelf, much in the same way I don't use more than one dock. Others (Seeker, for instance) use a TON of docks - different people, different strokes, and the fact that you CAN if you want to is the important thing.

Being able to have sub-docks on every app icon if you want really obviates the need for more than one dock, if you use a dock as the paradigm intended. I have three, but only for testing new themes, two of them are normally hidden out of the way until testing or even disabled.

It is even more difficult to see any real justification for more than one shelf, but then, at least you'll be able to do it if that's what gets you through the night. ;)
winstep wrote:
It's something that has been on the to-do list for years, and it also opens the door for other things (for instance, true high DPI support/scaling for the Shelf was a direct result of this change) including that 'Drawers' idea I already discussed here which will also be a possibility with the vertical Shelves.

I remember we were discussing the desirability of a vertical shelf even back in the earliest days of the shelf.... :) And scalability will be another great asset. Really, this is going to be, in the old-fashioned way, what used to be known as a major new release. :)
winstep wrote:
There aren't many more things left in my to-do list, and crossing this one off is a major step. Other things are NextSTART taskbars per monitor/VDM, multiple instance modules, the Theme Manager and, perhaps, also Stack docklet support.

Any chance NextSTART menu and taskbar scalability? (Some menus, inc. some of my own, can look horribly small even at 1600x1200. Esp. to those of us with visual impairments.) Oh, and don't forget the - dare I say it? - well, you know what semi-mythical beast I mean Jorge. ;)
winstep wrote:
Once all that has been accomplished the only thing left to do will be minor improvements (e.g. bloatware lol), which opens the door to start working on other major application(s) and to start diversifying a bit.

Always a good plan. :) Diversifying that is. ;)
winstep wrote:
I H A T E buglets!

LOL! Well of course you would as a programmer. But still, better than a really serious bug that plays havoc with something, or even everything. :P
winstep wrote:
And just in time because... in 2019 Winstep will be 20 years old. That's quite a respectful age for a software company eheh.

You're making me feel my age now Jorge. :( LOL! Yeah, not a bad age and track record at all my friend, you have done well indeed. So, are you going to put down a few bottles of - no, not Champers - fine Pork-and-Cheese Rosé for the occasion so we can all celebrate when the time comes? ;)

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:28 pm
Posts: 147
Something funny, even though it has been more than half a year ( 8 months and some change) since I have installed this software package, I have not finished my setup. Meaning I still do not have things settled and I still did not decide how I want/ need things to be accessed. I like the dock idea mainly ( did use Cairo dock on different linux distributions and also worked on a Mac for a while) but I think that shelfs offer more functionality, so I use them also. Don`t like the Windows taskbar at all, so the I am afraid I have not give NextStart taskbar much chance to shine. I like the NextStart menu (did not explore its full potential).
The idea is that with many options often comes the difficulty in making decisions. Sooo many ways to do things. Anyway, I like that alot, so thank you Jorge for giving so much love to this software. When it comes to multiple shelfs, vertical shelfs and drawers, after reading your posts, I think about a setup with more live folders in the shelf and a more convenient way sto show the systray and most used system settings. I will experiment with the beta.

Winstep wrote:

Quote:
Vlad wrote:
I am preparing for a short vacantion


Have fun! :D Mine won't be for another month or so


Thanks Jorge, hope nothing will stop your vacantion.


Winstep wrote:

Quote:
Once all that has been accomplished the only thing left to do will be minor improvements (e.g. bloatware lol), which opens the door to start working on other major application(s) and to start diversifying a bit.


May I ask what you have in mind when you say new software?
I for one would love to see a Window Blinds replacement comming from Winstep. Stardock is not taking their Object Desktop suite very seriously. It is been a while since Windows 10 did that update that introduced Timeline, that broke Task View swicher for Window Blinds users and all the customers got was... well nothing.

Anyway, I am glad that there are developers that actually like what they are doing instead of just using their brain power to squeeze as much money from their customers as posible. That alone I think is reason enough to support a developer.
Thumbs up Jorge and happy coding! :D


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
Vlad wrote:
Something funny, even though it has been more than half a year ( 8 months and some change) since I have installed this software package, I have not finished my setup. Meaning I still do not have things settled and I still did not decide how I want/ need things to be accessed. I like the dock idea mainly ( did use Cairo dock on different linux distributions and also worked on a Mac for a while) but I think that shelfs offer more functionality, so I use them also. Don`t like the Windows taskbar at all, so the I am afraid I have not give NextStart taskbar much chance to shine. I like the NextStart menu (did not explore its full potential).
The idea is that with many options often comes the difficulty in making decisions. Sooo many ways to do things. Anyway, I like that alot, so thank you Jorge for giving so much love to this software. When it comes to multiple shelfs, vertical shelfs and drawers, after reading your posts, I think about a setup with more live folders in the shelf and a more convenient way sto show the systray and most used system settings. I will experiment with the beta.

Try to look at it this way - the dock is best used for your most frequently (i.e., daily) used apps and utils, purely as an app launcher. The shelf is indeed far more versatile and powerful. You can use it for launching apps and utils that you don't perhaps use on a daily basis but still quite often; you could have tabs for your important documents, for organising projects, in fact, you'll soon discover that the many different types of tabs let you do an awesome amount of things.

Having in the past used non-Windows operating systems (e.g., NeXTSTEP, AmigaOS, Sun Solaris, SGI Irix, OS/2, etc.) I have never been a fan of the Windows Taskbar and Start Menu. Normally, I just keep a Nextstart tasklist and systray on the desktop. However, the NestSTART Taskbar is a lot more versatile than its Windows cousin, e.g. it can also display iconified modules and more, and you may find it worth your while to investigate it further. The incredible versatility of NextSTART menus is something I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on here.

Anyway, happy experimenting and hope you find your ideal set-up soon.
Vlad wrote:
winstep wrote:
.... which opens the door to start working on other major application(s) and to start diversifying a bit.

May I ask what you have in mind when you say new software?
I for one would love to see a Window Blinds replacement comming from Winstep. Stardock is not taking their Object Desktop suite very seriously. It is been a while since Windows 10 did that update that introduced Timeline, that broke Task View swicher for Window Blinds users and all the customers got was... well nothing.

Object Desktop (originally a suite for OS/2, then since Windows NT4 available for Win) was, in its early years, quite a good and useful suite of utils. Once Stardock acquired Windowblinds, the focus started shifting, first slowly, then increasingly quicker, towards eye candy. But Windowblinds was pretty unusable in its early days and has never been done really properly. Certainly under Win10 it sucks majorly AFAIC. So I agree, a Winstep app to skin Windows would be fab, but I doubt that's one of the things that Jorge has in mind. :)
Vlad wrote:
Anyway, I am glad that there are developers that actually like what they are doing instead of just using their brain power to squeeze as much money from their customers as posible. That alone I think is reason enough to support a developer.
Thumbs up Jorge and happy coding! :D

Hear, hear! :)

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:55 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
winstep wrote:
So, for instance, in the case of a *floating* Shelf, if the Shelf is in the top half of the screen and invert tabs is OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the bottom of the Shelf. Likewise, if you move the Shelf to the bottom half of the screen and invert tabs remains OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the top of the Shelf.

This is a bit like what already happens with docks: for instance, if a floating dock is somewhere at the top half of the screen, then the icons magnify down. Move it to the lower half, however, and the icons start magnifying UP. Likewise for the orientation of the dock's background/skin.

nexter wrote:
Hmm, yes.... and, no. In a general sense, it makes eminent good sense Jorge. In the case of a free-floating shelf, I'm not so sure. To my way of thinking, even if the latter is in the top half of the screen, tabs at the top still seem more logical. Only in docked positions (i.e., top or bottom) is it 100% the logical choice.


And you were absolutely right. Sometimes you have to try something to grasp how 'wrong' it actually feels.

So, floating Shelves will always have tabs at the top unless the user has inverted the Shelf.

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:05 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
So, the major and more extensive/time consuming modifications to the code are behind me now.

Despite this, adding vertical shelves is also proving to be very time consuming, but not so much in the sheer quantity of work involved. People like Ric will remember that the oldest part of the code is related to the Shelf, some of it going all the way back to July 2000 (yep, 18 years).

Developers get better with age, just like fine wine. ;) Their grasp of the programming language gets better and better as well as their technique. This means many of the things I did back then I would have done differently now.

Also, when you start you don't always have a clear idea on where things will end up going, so eventually you start adding compatibility layers on top of compatibility layers as the application becomes more ambitious.

So, I have been slowly simplifying the code, unraveling all those layers so it's easier to achieve my goal while still preserving backwards compatibility, and at the same time refreshing my memory on how everything is 'glued together' in what relates to the Shelf.

Shouldn't be long now for a new beta. :)

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
Vlad wrote:
May I ask what you have in mind when you say new software?


Oh I have no idea yet. Will think of something when the time comes.

The first thing I will probably do is use the current Alarms functionality built in into WorkShelf/Nexus to make a stand alone Alarms application.

Vlad wrote:
I for one would love to see a Window Blinds replacement comming from Winstep. Stardock is not taking their Object Desktop suite very seriously. It is been a while since Windows 10 did that update that introduced Timeline, that broke Task View swicher for Window Blinds users and all the customers got was... well nothing.


There's a reason all who tried to compete with WindowBlinds failed miserably: technically it is something very difficult to pull off. Not so much HOW you do it, but the fact that there are so many exceptions.

The fact that Windows allows you to do stuff Microsoft developers never dreamed about (which is good) is also the reason why an application like WindowBlinds is probably a nightmare to code: you're constantly dealing with exceptions used by other application developers for their own application windows, etc...

And since you can't pull something like that off without using undocumented/not supported techniques that delve deep into the inner workings of the OS, it will break every time Microsoft releases a new version of Windows. Not such a big problem when those versions are 4-5 years apart, but a MAJOR issue when they are 6 months apart: your application keeps breaking and you probably feel like you're fighting an up-hill battle just to keep up.

This is compounded by the fact that Windows is now 'beautiful enough' to justify not using customization solutions anymore. Interest in Windows skinning (and all other forms of customization, really) has declined sharply in recent years and WindowBlinds is no longer the 'cash cow' to Stardock that it once was (far from it now, in fact).

So, kudos to Stardock's Neil Banfield for having pulled it off for as long as he has.

As for the other Stardock customization applications: it is no secret that Brad (Stardock's CEO) true ambition was to make games, that's what he personally loves doing. Customization applications (coded by others) were just a means to reach that goal and it really saddens me to see them 'cheapened' by their current price policy. There also aren't many people in the world who do/can do these kind of applications (and certainly not something you can achieve with slow and bloated .NET).

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
winstep wrote:
winstep wrote:
So, for instance, in the case of a *floating* Shelf, if the Shelf is in the top half of the screen and invert tabs is OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the bottom of the Shelf. Likewise, if you move the Shelf to the bottom half of the screen and invert tabs remains OFF, then the tabs automatically appear at the top of the Shelf....

nexter wrote:
Hmm, yes.... and, no. In a general sense, it makes eminent good sense Jorge. In the case of a free-floating shelf, I'm not so sure. To my way of thinking, even if the latter is in the top half of the screen, tabs at the top still seem more logical. Only in docked positions (i.e., top or bottom) is it 100% the logical choice.

And you were absolutely right. Sometimes you have to try something to grasp how 'wrong' it actually feels.

Thank you Jorge. :) Glad you tried it - just doesn't look right somehow, does it? (Of course, totally different matter with vertical shelves.)
winstep wrote:
So, floating Shelves will always have tabs at the top unless the user has inverted the Shelf.

Good choice, even if it means/meant more work for you.

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:36 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
nexter wrote:
Good choice, even if it means/meant more work for you.


You could almost smell the effort, as I changed the 3 lines of code required for this. :wink:

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Posts: 832
Location: UK
winstep wrote:
So, the major and more extensive/time consuming modifications to the code are behind me now.

Wow, excellent achievement Jorge.
winstep wrote:
Despite this, adding vertical shelves is also proving to be very time consuming, but not so much in the sheer quantity of work involved. People like Ric will remember that the oldest part of the code is related to the Shelf, some of it going all the way back to July 2000 (yep, 18 years).

Oi, that's more years than I care to admit to remembering.... ;) But yes, I well remember the trials and tribulations of it all and what an awesome thing the shelf was even then.
winstep wrote:
Developers get better with age, just like fine wine. ;) Their grasp of the programming language gets better and better as well as their technique. This means many of the things I did back then I would have done differently now.

Ha, that's rich coming from someone who almost still had milk running down his chin when this all started. ;) Ah yes, the benefit of hindsight and experience.... Wonderful thing. :)
winstep wrote:
Also, when you start you don't always have a clear idea on where things will end up going, so eventually you start adding compatibility layers on top of compatibility layers as the application becomes more ambitious.

So, I have been slowly simplifying the code, unraveling all those layers so it's easier to achieve my goal while still preserving backwards compatibility, and at the same time refreshing my memory on how everything is 'glued together' in what relates to the Shelf.

That must have been an absolutely awesome amount of work already. Hats off to you Jorge.
winstep wrote:
Shouldn't be long now for a new beta. :)

The private beta no longer necessary, I take it?

By the bye, as the vertical shelves will simply rotate a horizontal bottom shelf, do I take it there's no additional skinning involved then?
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Good choice, even if it means/meant more work for you.

You could almost smell the effort, as I changed the 3 lines of code required for this. :wink:

LOL! Oh well, not so bad then. :)

_________________
nexter - so, what's next?


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So, what's next after v18.5?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:11 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 10580
nexter wrote:
The private beta no longer necessary, I take it?


Perhaps not, we'll see how it goes.

nexter wrote:
By the bye, as the vertical shelves will simply rotate a horizontal bottom shelf, do I take it there's no additional skinning involved then?


Yep, no additional skinning required. Purists won't like that much, of course. :wink:

_________________
Jorge Coelho
Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Board index : Winstep Forums : General Discussion  [ 388 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 26  Next
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: