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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:13 am 
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I don't know where you get the idea of what I said being "bellicose and even belligerent complaining..." and to "go and cry in a pillow and rip up a tissue or crush a grape."

That is very rude of you to say. I was neither bellicose, belligerent or rude in my disagreement with the new icon order. I even stated that I appreciate all the work Jorge puts into his programs and support he provides. I'm sure he knows that and it isn't the first time I've stated such.

Also, it isn't just me or one other person. Jorge didn't start this thread just because of me. Read the very first thing he stated in this thread.

nexter wrote:
There is no other programme out there that is anything like Workshelf shelves (not on Windows anyway), so when you say "This is the first and only program that I've seen that does not have a Ascending/Descending option," you are not comparing like with like - you may be comparing apples with oranges, but the only thing those two share is that both are fruit! There are programmes or parts thereof where an ascending/descending option is a valid one, no doubt. A shelf however is definitely not one of them.


nexter wrote:
Only because you are biased because you had become used to the old but utterly *wrong*, *illogical* and *unnatural* way.

And where exactly do "so many people have an issue with it" - provide evidence. So far, I've only seen yourself and the above other user moan about it.


It's obvious that a Shelf isn't exactly the same as other programs. The point of the comment is (and you again said it even after) I made it clear that the reason I don't like it in reverse order has nothing to do with the fact that I got used to it that way.

It has everything to do with it being the natural way to me and millions of other people that uses EVERY OTHER PROGRAM. And for the few that don't want it that way for whatever reason, they have the option to change it.

If Jorge feels it's too much of a hassle to put in the option, it's his program and it's up to him. I can only let him know that it isn't a trivial option to me.

You or anyone else have never seen me "complain" to this degree about anything and I've been a Winstep user for 9 years. Over those years, I've personally had several friends and family purchase Xtreme, and don't know how many people I'm responsible for becoming customers (that I don't even know) by posting about Xtreme (and Winstep in general) on countless forums, blogs etc.

So, I would appreciate it if I'm not attacked for being some kind of unappreciative crybaby.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:59 am 
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Posts: 405
well im of the opinion the new way is the wrong way too

imagine you have numbered icons, so instead of
1 2 3 ..... 9 10
11 12 13

now you have
11 12 13
1 2 3 ..... 9 10

i get where Jorge is coming from and i have accepted it wont change, but it still feels wrong


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Ok, lets all calm down (including me lol). This is obviously a highly divisive issue important enough to make tempers flare.

Look, one thing we ALL have to agree in here to get some common ground:

There is no actual LOSS OF FUNCTIONALITY with this change.

All the icons are still there and you can still do everything you did before - the ONLY difference is that the icon rows are in a reverse order. So, you FEEL this is wrong, but feeling is a highly subjective experience.

This reminds me of my little 'spin controls' replacement. A spin control is a combination of a text box holding a value with up and down arrows next to it, which you can use to change the value in the text box.

Now, to add a REAL spin control to the UI I would have to add a new ocx file to the application, and I didn't want to do that because that would be ANOTHER dependency on a 3rd party control and ocxs are know to cause problems from time to time.

So, I decided to fake it by using a regular text box with a scroll bar next to it, where the only thing you could see from the latter were the arrows at both end.

Only one problem with this: never having used a real spin control (or at least not having paid attention while using it) I did not notice that the arrows in spin controls and in scroll bars do OPPOSITE things: the down arrow of a spin control DECREASES the value - the down arrow of a scroll bar INCREASES the value.

And there we have it: my 'spin controls' are behaving differently from what they should, and eventually someone pointed this out to me.

However (and this is the important part) it does not FEEL wrong to ME because from the very beginning I assumed that the down arrow would increase the value. It will feel wrong to those used to REAL spin controls, of course.

But this only proves how 'feeling' is such a subjective thing, because the truth is: in both cases, there is NO LOSS OF FUNCTION. I can STILL increase and decrease values regardless of what 'direction' the arrows go.

Now imagine I fix this issue by making my spin controls behave like the real thing, but then get a bunch of 'hate mail' (just kidding, of course) from people used to how it worked before. What now?

So, I wanted to make it very clear that what we are arguing about here is FEELINGS, and because it's feelings there is no right or wrong answer. We will be debating this until hell freezes over.

Furthermore, there is something else I would like to clarify:

It seems to me this is only an issue if TWO conditions are true: one, the Shelf is docked to the top screen edge, and two, the Shelf is inverted.

Is this true?

If so, let me remind you that the ability to invert Shelves is by itself already a deviation on the normal behavior of Shelves (i.e.; it's the tabs that move to expand the Shelf).

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Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Windy wrote:
I don't know where you get the idea of what I said being "bellicose and even belligerent complaining..." and to "go and cry in a pillow and rip up a tissue or crush a grape."

Well, that is certainly the way it comes across here, especially so with the post I was replying to.
Windy wrote:
That is very rude of you to say. I was neither bellicose, belligerent or rude in my disagreement with the new icon order....

I am normally all sweetness and light, and always willing to help someone else if I can, but I do have a fairly short fuse. Much, much, much shorter than our ever-patient Jorge. And you just keep repeating the same old nonsense that is *not* based on any kind of fact or truth but purely on your subjective habituation to what is clearly the wrong way. In my book, that is bellicose and at the least bordering on belligerent.
Windy wrote:
Also, it isn't just me or one other person. Jorge didn't start this thread just because of me. Read the very first thing he stated in this thread.

I can assure you I did. Jorge said, and I quote, "This is a change that seems to be generating a few complaints from users...." Note, a *FEW*. A few means exactly that. If it really seriously pissed off droves of users, I'm sure we would have seen myriad posts in this forum, complaining like hell. (It's about the only time most folks seem to be bothered to post, when they have something to complain about. Or when they have a problem.)
Windy wrote:
nexter wrote:
.... Only because you are biased because you had become used to the old but utterly *wrong*, *illogical* and *unnatural* way.

And where exactly do "so many people have an issue with it" - provide evidence. So far, I've only seen yourself and the above other user moan about it.

It's obvious that a Shelf isn't exactly the same as other programs. The point of the comment is (and you again said it even after) I made it clear that the reason I don't like it in reverse order has nothing to do with the fact that I got used to it that way.

On the contrary, it has *everything* to do with the fact you got used to the old, wrong way. Humans are creatures of habit and do not like change, sometimes even when that change is actually for the better and more natural - it is hard-wired into the species. But, on the whole, being also a fairly adaptable species, people get used to changes eventually and accept them. And where a change is rational and logical, and an improvement, the more intelligent specimens will quickly realise, acknowledge and accept this.
Windy wrote:
It has everything to do with it being the natural way to me and millions of other people that uses EVERY OTHER PROGRAM. And for the few that don't want it that way for whatever reason, they have the option to change it.

Balderdash. You are still clinging to your illusion that you are right and the world is wrong. It has been explained to you multiple times why you *think* the old way was right. Well, just *thinking* and *wishing* it right doesn't make it so. You are also still making references to apples and oranges.

Sometimes, there is only one right way. This is one of them. So why not stop whinging and accept things for what they are - the sooner you do, the sooner you'll get used to it and forget all about the old wrong way and be a much happier person. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know.
Windy wrote:
If Jorge feels it's too much of a hassle to put in the option, it's his program and it's up to him. I can only let him know that it isn't a trivial option to me.

Jorge has already stated that it would be fairly major hassle - personally, I'd describe it as a great big dung heap of hassle for no good cause. And, to have that *wrong* option there would more likely than not confuse the hell out of far more people than it would serve to satisfy their little egos.

Besides, Jorge is evidently extremely busy (instead of taking a more than well-deserved rest!) fixing all kinds of things that are seriously important - have a look for example at some of the fantastic improvements he has made to the web site. Those will help not only countless new users but even very many existing ones, I'm sure.

Your 'option' may not be trivial to you, but from here it looks worse than trivial. What Jorge is doing is essential stuff, so why should he waste so much time and effort to please maybe a handful or so users while potentially pissing off a whole host of others? Doesn't make any sense now does it.

And that is where I leave off, as far as I am concerned this particular discussion has become utterly fruitless and even farcical. End of story.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Location: UK
winstep wrote:
Ok, lets all calm down (including me lol). This is obviously a highly divisive issue important enough to make tempers flare.

Look, one thing we ALL have to agree in here to get some common ground:

There is no actual LOSS OF FUNCTIONALITY with this change.

All the icons are still there and you can still do everything you did before - the ONLY difference is that the icon rows are in a reverse order. So, you FEEL this is wrong, but feeling is a highly subjective experience.

This reminds me of my little 'spin controls' replacement. A spin control is a combination of a text box holding a value with up and down arrows next to it, which you can use to change the value in the text box.

Now, to add a REAL spin control to the UI I would have to add a new ocx file to the application, and I didn't want to do that because that would be ANOTHER dependency on a 3rd party control and ocxs are know to cause problems from time to time.

So, I decided to fake it by using a regular text box with a scroll bar next to it, where the only thing you could see from the latter were the arrows at both end.

Only one problem with this: never having used a real spin control (or at least not having paid attention while using it) I did not notice that the arrows in spin controls and in scroll bars do OPPOSITE things: the down arrow of a spin control DECREASES the value - the down arrow of a scroll bar INCREASES the value.

And there we have it: my 'spin controls' are behaving differently from what they should, and eventually someone pointed this out to me.

However (and this is the important part) it does not FEEL wrong to ME because from the very beginning I assumed that the down arrow would increase the value. It will feel wrong to those used to REAL spin controls, of course.

But this only proves how 'feeling' is such a subjective thing, because the truth is: in both cases, there is NO LOSS OF FUNCTION. I can STILL increase and decrease values regardless of what 'direction' the arrows go.

Now imagine I fix this issue by making my spin controls behave like the real thing, but then get a bunch of 'hate mail' (just kidding, of course) from people used to how it worked before. What now?

So, I wanted to make it very clear that what we are arguing about here is FEELINGS, and because it's feelings there is no right or wrong answer. We will be debating this until hell freezes over.

Furthermore, there is something else I would like to clarify:

It seems to me this is only an issue if TWO conditions are true: one, the Shelf is docked to the top screen edge, and two, the Shelf is inverted.

Is this true?

If so, let me remind you that the ability to invert Shelves is by itself already a deviation on the normal behavior of Shelves (i.e.; it's the tabs that move to expand the Shelf).

Absolutely spot on on just about everything Jorge, well said. The cows have already started coming home and here we are still arguing whether they should come home this way or that! ;)

So, let's draw a line under it and say, end of topic. Things are as they are and what they are, and here, a cigar really is just a cigar.

BTW, the 'spin controls' - guilty as charged sir. ;) Yep, 'twas me.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 pm 
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nexter wrote:
Windy wrote:
That is very rude of you to say. I was neither bellicose, belligerent or rude in my disagreement with the new icon order....

I am normally all sweetness and light, and always willing to help someone else if I can, but I do have a fairly short fuse. Much, much, much shorter than our ever-patient Jorge


Ahahah. Windy, don't take it personally.

Ric is a very nice guy, but he does have a short fuse - back in the old Winstep2000 mailing list days me and John (my ex business partner) used to affectionately call him 'our own personal troll' (sorry Ric, lol). Not because he liked to troll but because he wasn't afraid to let his opinion be known in VERY strong terms.

I can also add that age has made him a lot mellower than he was before LOL

nexter wrote:
In my book, that is bellicose and at the least bordering on belligerent.


Well, I have to agree the whole thing was getting on my nerves, and I can also be pretty blunt and direct when I need to.

This said, nobody should be afraid to speak their minds here. They might face strong opposition (and please never take that opposition personally), but I am not immune to changing my mind either provided the arguments presented make sense (or at least you manage to make your reasons resonate with me) and justify a change.

Just don't assume that a change like this would be trivial (I already explained above why not) or that I am simply being stubborn, because that is not the case.

nexter wrote:
What Jorge is doing is essential stuff, so why should he waste so much time and effort to please maybe a handful or so users while potentially pissing off a whole host of others?


Well, I don't think anybody would be pissed off if I changed it back, given how recent this change was. :)

Plus, I am convinced this only applies to the case where the Shelf is inverted and docked to the top screen edge (it's the only case where the first row of icons are NOT right below the tabs) - there aren't that many users using it that way.

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Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:03 pm 
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.it to used get You'll .way other the it to used just are you because it's annoying it find you If .is now program the like just top to bottom from this writing I'm


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Yes, I actually would. The same way Arabs are used to reading right to left instead of left to right.

Sigh.

Besides, words are connected to form sentences, which is what provides the idea. Icons in a Shelf are not, each is an individual unit completely independent from the icon next to it (or above it, or below it).

Want me to prove this to you? Consider the following two row Shelf with icons being represented by letters:

Code:
ABCDE
FGHIJ


Now we resize the Shelf so it becomes one icon wider

Code:
ABCDEF
GHIJ


How annoyed are you that the F is no longer below the A? I for sure wouldn't be.

Even if it was a question of muscle memory to find that F icon, all I need to do now is retrain my muscle memory until the second example becomes second nature, at which point it's the first example that becomes alien to me.

And if we scramble all the icons?

Code:
JBEIH
CAFGD


I can still access them all! Which is what really matters.

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Winstep Xtreme - Xtreme Power!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:14 am 
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Posts: 832
Location: UK
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
Windy wrote:
That is very rude of you to say. I was neither bellicose, belligerent or rude in my disagreement with the new icon order....

I am normally all sweetness and light, and always willing to help someone else if I can, but I do have a fairly short fuse. Much, much, much shorter than our ever-patient Jorge

Ahahah. Windy, don't take it personally.

Ric is a very nice guy, but he does have a short fuse - back in the old Winstep2000 mailing list days me and John (my ex business partner) used to affectionately call him 'our own personal troll' (sorry Ric, lol). Not because he liked to troll but because he wasn't afraid to let his opinion be known in VERY strong terms.

Aww, how sweet of you top say so Jorge. :) And LOL!
winstep wrote:
I can also add that age has made him a lot mellower than he was before LOL

LOL! You wish! Age hath not mellowed me. It's just made me pick and choose when to get stroppy - life's too damn short to fly off at every turn. :P
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
In my book, that is bellicose and at the least bordering on belligerent.

Well, I have to agree the whole thing was getting on my nerves, and I can also be pretty blunt and direct when I need to.

This said, nobody should be afraid to speak their minds here. They might face strong opposition (and please never take that opposition personally), but I am not immune to changing my mind either provided the arguments presented make sense (or at least you manage to make your reasons resonate with me) and justify a change.

Just don't assume that a change like this would be trivial (I already explained above why not) or that I am simply being stubborn, because that is not the case.

And I can wholeheartedly second that.
winstep wrote:
nexter wrote:
What Jorge is doing is essential stuff, so why should he waste so much time and effort to please maybe a handful or so users while potentially pissing off a whole host of others?

Well, I don't think anybody would be pissed off if I changed it back, given how recent this change was. :)

I was thinking more in terms of new users who would find such an additional option more than a little confusing.
winstep wrote:
Plus, I am convinced this only applies to the case where the Shelf is inverted and docked to the top screen edge (it's the only case where the first row of icons are NOT right below the tabs) - there aren't that many users using it that way.

No, I'm sure there aren't. Might as well just use it undocked, at any rate that's what I'd be doing if I wanted the tabs at the top on a shelf at the top edge.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:25 am 
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winstep wrote:
Yes, I actually would. The same way Arabs are used to reading right to left instead of left to right.

Indeed. Hebrew is likewise written right to left, and so are Persian, Urdu, and I think Armenian and a couple of other languages. Tajik, Uzbek, etc. also were, traditionally, before being 'converted' to Cyrillic script. Far Eastern writing systems traditionally were mostly written top to bottom, right to left. Still perfectly easy to make sense of and get used to.
winstep wrote:
Sigh.

*Very deep* sight here too.
winstep wrote:
Besides, words are connected to form sentences, which is what provides the idea. Icons in a Shelf are not, each is an individual unit completely independent from the icon next to it (or above it, or below it).

Want me to prove this to you? Consider the following two row Shelf with icons being represented by letters:

Code:
ABCDE
FGHIJ


Now we resize the Shelf so it becomes one icon wider

Code:
ABCDEF
GHIJ


How annoyed are you that the F is no longer below the A? I for sure wouldn't be.

Even if it was a question of muscle memory to find that F icon, all I need to do now is retrain my muscle memory until the second example becomes second nature, at which point it's the first example that becomes alien to me.

And if we scramble all the icons?

Code:
JBEIH
CAFGD


I can still access them all! Which is what really matters.

Me too. Doesn't make the slightest difference in terms of function.

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Ok, I would like you guys (Seeker, Windy, Scottvf) to please identify all the Shelf position combinations that 'feel' wrong according to you:

1. Shelf docked at top, normal
2. Shelf docked at top, inverted
3. Shelf floating, normal
4. Shelf floating, inverted
5. Shelf docked at bottom, normal
6. Shelf docked at bottom, inverted

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http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Jorge, I was going to address Nexter's last comments, but since you asked the question, I'll let it go.

I only use the Shelf docked at the top with the tabs at the top, and 1 icon row at a time, so I'll address #2 which the setting I use.

The only part that feels wrong is the new current icon order. What feels right is the following:

1. The icons are in alphabetical order

2. When my mouse ring (my mouse is a Expert Mouse® Wireless Trackball https://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k ... -trackball) is moved downward with my right thumb, the icon row can ONLY scroll down too if the FIRST NAME in the icon row is visible. In other words, the first name should be at the top left, not at the bottom right.

And if the last name is visible, I move the mouse ring upwards with my right thumb so the icon row can ONLY scroll upward.

My pertinent settings are as follows:

Under the Position tab in Shelf Properties


Same as other windows

Keep tabs above other...UNSELECTED

Prevent maximized windows from overlapping...UNSELECTED

Respect space reserved...SELECTED

Under the Behavior tab

Auto-hide...SELECTED

Activate shelf by bumping...SELECTED

Prevent shelf from being dragged...SELECTED

Under the Appearance tab

How many lines of text...1

Where would you like to position...Below the icons

Where would you like to position the shelf tabs...Bottom of the shelf

IMPORTANT! MY MOUSE RING HAS THE OPTION TO CHANGE THE SCROLL DIRECTION, SO WHEN I SCROLL ON THE NET OR EXPLORER, MY PAGES BEHAVE IN THE SAME MANNER AS I DESCRIBED ABOVE. I MOVE MY RING DOWNWARDS, THE PAGE SCROLLS DOWN AND VICE VERSA.


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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Windy wrote:
I only use the Shelf docked at the top with the tabs at the top, and 1 icon row at a time, so I'll address #2 which the setting I use.


Well, I am still waiting for the others to respond. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:56 pm 
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winstep wrote:
Windy wrote:
I only use the Shelf docked at the top with the tabs at the top, and 1 icon row at a time, so I'll address #2 which the setting I use.

Well, I am still waiting for the others to respond. :)

Can't be that important then if nobody's been bothered to respond so far....

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 Post subject: Re: New Icon Row order for Shelves at the top of the screen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:56 am 
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winstep wrote:
Ok, I would like you guys (Seeker, Windy, Scottvf) to please identify all the Shelf position combinations that 'feel' wrong according to you:

1. Shelf docked at top, normal
2. Shelf docked at top, inverted
3. Shelf floating, normal
4. Shelf floating, inverted
5. Shelf docked at bottom, normal
6. Shelf docked at bottom, inverted


1,2 and 4


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