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 Post subject: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:09 pm 
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Can't believe I've put up with Objectdock so many years. Transitioning here though I have some issues.

I want a tabbed dock (I guess this is called a shelf here). I want a simple one which looks like I ran into here:

https://www.winstep.net/help/workshelf/ ... 0WorkShelf?

All my choices for "shelves" are these way to fancy looking silly stuff.

Is is possible to get a basic tabbed today which looks like tabs as I can see from this page it used to have ?

Second pain point, I have several machine and each have tabbed docks with, for example on this machine, 15 tabs with 10-25 entries on each. Any way to import these into Nexus ? cause recreating them by hand is turning out to be almost insurmountable.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:50 pm 
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kevinma wrote:
I want a tabbed dock (I guess this is called a shelf here). I want a simple one which looks like I ran into here:


Wincustomize has a dedicated Winstep themes section with hundreds of themes. I believe you can find the theme you want HERE.

Image

That is a very old theme, though. You probably only want to apply that theme to the Shelf and not the other objects, in which case I think you should read this themes tutorial first.

kevinma wrote:
Second pain point, I have several machine and each have tabbed docks with, for example on this machine, 15 tabs with 10-25 entries on each. Any way to import these into Nexus ? cause recreating them by hand is turning out to be almost insurmountable.


See, if you were going from a Winstep application to ObjectDock instead of the other way around this would be much easier. This because the Winstep Shelves, docks, etc, support *true* drag & drop, which I don't think ObjectDock does (dragging an item away from the dock or tabbed dock there means you want to delete it, IIRC).

Adding items to the Shelf via drag & drop from the original locations is still probably a lot quicker than painfully adding them via a right click context menu, if that is what you are doing.

Also, to customize the icons, assuming you have a bunch of your favorite icons in one or more folders, DO NOT customize them via the Item Properties Editor, that would be painfully slow. Simply drag the .ICO, .PNG or .TIF images from the folder and drop them directly into the item in the dock or Shelf that you want to change the icon to.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:27 am 
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Thank you for the suggestions. I will digest the themes stuff cause the site with themes is exactly what I do not want. I want a dock with tabs, simple classic, all this other revved up stuff is waste of time. I don't have to have
that old tab theme but something which resembles tabs would be nice. For now
I continue to use Objectdock for the tabbed docks cause I find the shelf
implementation very bizarre.

I'd really like to parse the objectdock file and convert it to the format used by winstep/nexus but haven't been able to dig around and see how and where
Nexus is storing the dock/shelf info.

I appreciate the icon drag and drop suggestion as I had been doing the painful way.

I will lastly point out that there is a lot which is really great here but this shelf implementation really makes Objectdock look good and that is pretty hard to do now days. I'm sure I'll come around at some point. The shear amount of
configuration here is amazing yet so difficult to find.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:25 pm 
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kevinma wrote:
I continue to use Objectdock for the tabbed docks cause I find the shelf implementation very bizarre.


How come? What do you find bizarre about it?

If you don't use the Shelf, you will never understand how far behind it in terms of functionality the tabbed dock in ObjectDock is. Don't get stuck on the 'better the devil you know' mindset, it will just make you miss out on many wonderful things in life. :)

Despite being similar, you're now using an entirely different new application - like all applications, and just like ObjectDock before it, it has an initial learning curve. But once you get past it, the world is your oyster. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:02 pm 
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kevinma wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions. I will digest the themes stuff cause the site with themes is exactly what I do not want. I want a dock with tabs, simple classic, all this other revved up stuff is waste of time. I don't have to have
that old tab theme but something which resembles tabs would be nice. For now
I continue to use Objectdock for the tabbed docks cause I find the shelf
implementation very bizarre.

You evidently have no conception of the various and different metaphors involved in UI apps like Winstep and, for that matter, ObjectDock. First off, a 'tabbed dock' is a contradiction in terms. A dock, in GUI terms, is a collection of icons (normally consisting of links to apps) in a single column or row and without any text. A row or column of icons with tabs is in fact a shelf - although the OD version is a very primitive implementation (it has its ancestry in Object Desktop for OS/2 and was a complete misnomer even then; and I think there was something similar in AmigaOS even earlier, IIRC).

Hence, you have to understand that the 'tabbed dock' that you want is quite simply, the Winstep Shelf. And how you can possibly say that you find its implementation 'very bizarre' just shows that you have no understanding of what you are talking about. Besides, you are comparing a gooseberry (OD) with a finely crafted artisan strawberry jam (Winstep). To stick with that metaphor, if you only ever have eaten raw, sour gooseberries and never tried a really fine strawberry jam, you'll never understand the endless possibilities a finely crafted fruit can offer.
kevinma wrote:
I'd really like to parse the objectdock file and convert it to the format used by winstep/nexus but haven't been able to dig around and see how and where
Nexus is storing the dock/shelf info.

The two are entirely different applications and that would be pretty much impossible.
kevinma wrote:
I will lastly point out that there is a lot which is really great here but this shelf implementation really makes Objectdock look good and that is pretty hard to do now days. I'm sure I'll come around at some point. The shear amount of
configuration here is amazing yet so difficult to find.

Deep breaths. Take it easy and have a real, proper look at Winstep, run with it for a bit and get to know it properly and eventually you'll see how bizarre your above statement re: the shelf v. OD really is. Winstep has been lightyears ahead of Object Desktop apps since before ObjectDock even came along. Try strawberries and cream or strawberry jam on a scone and clotted cream, and you'll never want to as much as see a gooseberry again. ;) Try something new and the world's your lobster! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:16 pm 
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what exactly do you dislike about the shelf?


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:39 pm 
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Thanks nexter for schooling me. You are so smart and so far superior to me that will humbly disappear from here now and go back to my feeble little world. Oh how I am so dumb and don't understand these big complex docks which you are so knowledgeable in. You are the best.

I've been writing software for 30+ years and can assure you that the one who doesn't understand software and how data is stored is not I.

Thanks Jorge for some pointers, I don't need the nexter BS. Sayonara.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Oh, Nexter (Ric) is a purist who enjoys a good debate, so he goes off like this sometimes. Don't take it personally, he's actually a nice person.

Me and Seeker would still like to know what you dislike about the Shelf though. Even if we don't agree, fresh input is always welcome. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:24 am 
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winstep wrote:
Oh, Nexter (Ric) is a purist who enjoys a good debate, so he goes off like this sometimes. Don't take it personally, he's actually a nice person.

Me and Seeker would still like to know what you dislike about the Shelf though. Even if we don't agree, fresh input is always welcome. :)

Hey, no offence was intended. And I too still very much would like to discover what exactly it is you dislike about the shelf, especially given that it seems to be exactly what you are looking for?

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:05 am 
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nexter wrote:
winstep wrote:
Oh, Nexter (Ric) is a purist who enjoys a good debate, so he goes off like this sometimes. Don't take it personally, he's actually a nice person.

Hey, no offence was intended.

I believe Ric has successfully chased him away with inoffensive phrases like
nexter wrote:
You evidently have no conception of the various and different metaphors involved in UI apps like Winstep and, for that matter, ObjectDock.

...and also...
nexter wrote:
Deep breaths.

The former made an assumption about his understanding of UX and the latter implied he was some level of hysterical. Throughout his reply, there was a condescending tone. He even stooped to using fruit jam as an allegory just in case Kevinma didn't understand the advanced concepts being discussed.

Ric 'evidently has no conception of the various and different' ways in which one could discuss something like the Winstep suite of programs without using condescension and assumptions to construct his arguments.

Except, I know that my last sentence is untrue because he does have such a conception.

Regardless, I suspect kevinma is gone and that's a sad thing.


Last edited by DesertDwarf on Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:26 am 
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DesertDwarf wrote:
Except, I know that my last sentence is untrue because he does have such a conception.


Yep, but sometimes he just goes off. This said, don't know if you still remember it, but he's much mellower now than he was years ago in the mailing lists lol

Being THAT opinionated would sometimes result in VERY lively debates (i.e. 'battles') with people who stood their ground, which luckily normally ended up in a virtual round of beer being distributed all around and everyone remaining friends. :)

Ric has been a Winstep user since 1999, the very beginning - IIRC, he was a friend of John T.Folden when me and John decided to create Winstep, and his contributions to emulate NeXT's look & feel on Windows (the very reason NextSTART was born) were invaluable.

DesertDwarf wrote:
Regardless, I suspect kevinma is gone and that's a sad thing.


Yes it is. That being the case, hope he changes his mind though, if not for Ric's semi-apology, at least for the rest of us. :)

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http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:47 pm 
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I'm back.

I fully intended to not return but, alas, this is one of those pieces of software that is so good that you use it despite its failings. I won't list all of them here cause we all know I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

I will present the killer problem(s) I'm facing.

So, this feature of a tab I can add to my shelf which loads contents of a folder ?

This is the magic for my new object dock to nexus conversion tool I tossed together. I named it nextersosmart.py.

I parsed out the object dock info and then created a folder with the shortcuts from it, which of course should make it easy to have a shelf now with these shortcuts which all match objectdock. I think I even saw some functionality here somewhere in nexus to allow me to then make a dock out of it. This is more than I need right now. I just want to import ODocks tabs into Nexus tabs. This conversion is looking easier by the minute except.....

I did my first tab, I did it the hard way which brought me here originally. My shelf has the "MAIN" tab nexus creates by default, a second one which is the one I created the slow hard way by hand, this was carefully created and the most important tab on my work machine. I now add another tab, choose folder type, point it to a folder and it displays the shortcuts here but it creams the one I created by hand. It still shows 3 tabs (Main, folder, byhand) but only Main and folder have any entries displayed. If I click the previously created tab (byhand), the important one, it is empty.

I backed up after creating the byhand tab yesterday.

So, I restore from backup. Its back. I now just try an empty folder, boom the empty folder tab is added and my byhand tab is empty.

I restore again. This time when adding the new tab, I leave the default values c:\..... . This time it does not cream byhand tab. I'm pleased.

I rename the tab created from the c:\drive folder

I then see that I can't see the full name of the new tab so I go fishing for a setting to fix this keyhole problem with tab display.

I right click, I choose Tab Alignment > Left Justified and bing. I can see its full name nicely. Pleased again. I think I'm getting somewhere.

I click on the byhand tab to start to work and......it is empty again.

I now have 3 tabs.

Main tab now displays the contents of the byhand tab (so it has now migrated rather than disappeared).
Folder tab now displays the correct contents of the folder.
byhand tab now diplays nothing.

So, I see an abundance of problems here. I can't quite pin down exactly which ones to enumerate them but I'm losing faith in this tool with each attempt to debug what is going on. Most of this is completely reproducible. I now turn Objectdock's tabbed dock back on and must do some work. I'll debug nexus further at home tonight.

Any suggestions ? nexter please keep your suggestions and let Jorge chime in :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:11 pm 
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Holy crap, you found a bona fide data loss bug!!!! :oops:

This was actually my biggest fear ever since I added support for multiple shelves in v18.8 (i.e.; August last year, so really not that long ago).

Adding support for multiple shelves also paved the way for Drawers and Grid Stacks and it was obviously a much needed and extremely important feature addition, but since WorkShelf was originally built to support a single Shelf (and remained that way for over a decade), making that happen meant changing THOUSANDS of lines of code. Literally!

Even one small change to the code can introduce bugs in what was previously rock solid code, now imagine thousands of changes at once!

Anyway, I already fixed the bug here and will issue an update ASAP, but here is what triggers this bug: if you edit a tab in the Shelf via the Tab Properties dialog and either change the tab type OR, if the tab is of type folder, the folder path. When you add or insert a new tab, the Tab Properties dialog is automatically invoked, as you noticed.

This is why your byhand tab remained in your second attempt when you left the folder path as C: instead of changing it.

Not sure yet if the second disappearance is related to this same bug or not. How did you rename the tab created from the C:\ drive folder? Again through the Tab Properties dialog, no? If so, it's the same bug.

This is the type of bug that is very difficult for me and existing beta testers to catch, as most of us already have our shelves set up properly and it would only happen under very specific conditions (i.e.; you must insert a tab instead of adding it and you must have tabs of Regular type beyond the insertion point). The fact this is the very first time I hear of this shows how rarely users must run into it.

I'm very relieved you had a backup, or you probably would have scrapped the application by now.

For the time being, do NOT insert tabs, use the Add Tab option instead (which will add a tab to the end of the Shelf) then drag the new tab handle into the correct position once you've got it setup properly. Alternatively use the Shelf Editor in the Shelf Properties dialog.

As a sweetner to what happened, you might like to know that I am also currently looking into allowing Shelves to import ObjectDock *tabbed dock* skins. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:58 pm 
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Ok, given that this is a potential data loss issue, I've decided to release a SILENT update to Winstep Xtreme v19.2 and Nexus Ultimate v19.2 that fixes this bug.

A Silent Update means the new build number will not be picked up by the Update Manager, but any users downloading Nexus Ultimate and Winstep Xtreme from now on will not be affected by this bug.

The instructions below are for everyone who reads this:

If you are running v19.2 of Winstep Xtreme, download the silent update from HERE.

If you are running v19.2 of Nexus Ultimate, download the silent update from HERE.

If you are running any version prior to v19.2, you MUST download the full version of the application from the Winstep web site (or just let the Update Manager do its job, it will download the fixed version).

Exit the Winstep application, unzip and run setup. This will install the update ON TOP of your current installation.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming from Objectdock, pain points
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:34 am 
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This is why you don't let people like nexter run off users. I can assure you after far too many years writing software I completely understand making one change and creating all kinds of unforeseen problems. I also know this opens a clear path for every Objectdock user on the planet to convert all their tabbed docks to tabbed shelves easily. Lord knows there are ton of unhappy stuck Objectdock users.

I am just getting here very late just before turning in for the night in Chicago.

I will pull the update and test to confirm.

Thank you very much for reading my post and your defect fix turnaround time is amazing.

One more thought, in my earlier post I should have chosen a different word than bizarre. In hindsight it was a tad inflammatory and I apologize for not realizing it at the time.


Last edited by kevinma on Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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